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Raising Whole Men: A Better Story About Masculinity, Sexuality, and Healing Part 2—With Sam Jolman

Season #3

Key Takeaways:

      • Sam Jolman, author of The Sex Talk You Never Got, joins Megan in discussing men's and young adult's sexuality.
      • They discuss culture and how to approach difficult topics with sons.

Notable Quotes:

      • "It's awkward for everyone, you know, even me with my sons. And so just to start with that normalization of like, this is just a sacred part of us. And most of us come from a lot of sexual neglect, meaning like we haven't had a lot of sexual formation that was healthy or innocent and blessed, you know, a message of blessing." — Sam Jolman
      • "Intimacy is all the levels. It's everything and wow... Sex is not intimacy. Intimacy is not sex, but sex is part of a wide array of intimacy." — Megan Owen
      • "Her [Peggy Orenstein] one sentence conclusion, which I thought was powerful, was when it comes to sex for women, she would say they need to learn to connect to their bodies and men need to learn to connect to their hearts." — Sam Jolman
      • "So just understanding the vicious culture among men, and you're going to be left out. If you decide you're going to be a tender hearted man, unless you find good friends... so just understanding your son will be left out. And I hate that." — Sam Jolman

Resources:

MEGAN: (0:03) This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. 

(1:10) Yes, thank you. This is just so helpful, and I'm hearing you say that if your son is coming to you, mom or dad, that's amazing that he's trusting you, that he knows that you're safe, and that he knows that he can get help with you. He's looking for help, and so when they come, you're saying instead of just setting up the roadblocks and the restrictions, which that's good, that's important because our kids need to know that we're safely placing boundaries around them because we love them, but just for some language, I think if I were to give practical language for what you just gave us, it would be something along the lines of, son, I'm so glad that you're sharing this with me and that you trust me to receive this. I love you so much. This doesn't change how I feel about you. I want to help you with this. I didn't know this was happening, so I couldn't help you. Now I know this is happening, and I want to help you with this, so let's do this together, and that's maybe a good start, you think, for then taking those beautiful steps that you've just outlined for us.

SAM: (2:29) Yes, and I know some parents actually reward their kids for having told.

MEGAN: (2:36) Oh, interesting.

SAM: (2:37) I know, meaning like, I'm so proud of you, and this is so brave that you've let me into your journey, and so reward meaning like your words of blessing to their bravery, and there's a difference between if it's an ongoing habit versus we've told our sons. I have three sons myself coming of age, so an almost 15-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a 9-year-old, so we've told our sons really with anything in the realm of sexuality, like if you invite us in, if you tell us stuff that happens, thank you, and we're going to take you to ice cream, so they know like.

MEGAN: (3:21) Oh, I love that, yeah.

SAM: (3:23) Yeah, and because the other thing I'd want you to know is that the realm of evil wants your son to bury their sexuality in shame, and then get stuck in the sin-shame cycle. I feel shame, and I hide, and I live in secrets and silence, which only furthers my pull to go self-soothe because I've invited nobody in, and so the fact that they're breaking it is against even the realm of evil, so trying to fight those messages of shame of something must be perverted about me that I'm drawn to this, something must be wrong with me that I was curious. I had parents, and they've given me permission to share this story. Their 14-year-old son did that very thing, say to them, “Mom, Dad, I need to let you know I've been looking at pornography for a few months, and I'm so scared. Help me.” They had no idea he had access, and so they started to ask the story, what happened? He had been at school with some friends who had been talking about girls they liked, and for some reason, it made him scared to tell about the girl he liked because he might have to kiss her someday, and he realized he didn't know how to kiss a girl, which is such an innocent curiosity, right? But he felt that lack of knowledge as shameful, so he went home and somehow snuck on the... He didn't want anybody to know he didn't know how to kiss a girl, so he snuck on the computer somehow and did an internet search for how to kiss a girl, and along with explanations came up pornography, right? Because again, they're looking for their next customer, and that... He had never seen anything like this, right? And so there was initially curiosity, but then there was a sense of something must be really perverted about even my question, because look what came up. So I'd want you to just understand that your children are probably battling shame messages. Shame, in my opinion, is never from God. Conviction is, but shame in that sense of you're dirty, you're perverted, you're evil, you know, those messages are not from God. So just coming to understand how you can start to explore with them what some of those messages they battle are as well feels important.

MEGAN: (6:08) So important. I have so many thoughts running through my head as I'm listening to you, and I don't know if this is true for all moms. It never occurred to me that any of my children would feel shame for who they were because I'm so crazy about them.

SAM: (6:29) That's awesome.

MEGAN: (6:31) Over the top.

SAM: (6:32) I love that. I love it.

MEGAN: (6:34) Even my own kids are like, you know, but I've told them so... I've probably gone overboard with telling them how remarkable they are to me and how special they are and how they are inherently very good and they have hearts of gold and how proud I am of them just because they are them and I love being with them, just being with them. And I've also discovered as they've entered young adulthood that they did have messages, like not from me, but from other places. They received messages that their sexuality was inherently wrong. And I didn't realize it. And so I wonder how many other parents, I don't know if that's just a me thing, but it's important for us to know that they're receiving these messages. Like the boy you just described who felt shame for not, how would he know how to kiss a girl?

SAM: (7:29) And you're like, how did, what? Yeah. Right. Evil is trying. Evil hates sexuality. And so evil is trying to get messages of shame early in all of our stories. And so, yes, it can feel like, what? You struggle with what about yourself?

MEGAN: (7:53) You're so amazing. You're my kid, you know? So yes. Yeah. But it is out there. And, you know, I wish, Sam, that I'd had your book when they were little. I know that things went the way they were supposed to go in our lives. But like you said, it's not too late to make this. Even with your 24, 25 year old, it's not too late. And it's very healing. And I did discover with my son, my younger son, when I did, you know, I just owned everything without giving him any reason to feel he needed to take care of me. He said, mama, I forgive you. He knows what our family's been through. He understands. And he's even moving into some protectiveness for his sisters and his mom. And just kind of as he grows, he's actually really crazy healthy. My son is.

SAM: (8:48) That's amazing.

MEGAN: (8:49) Even though we've been through so much together, like it's not too late. You're gonna make mistakes and you’re gonna make repair and you get to be human. So let me ask you this. If a mom feels awkward and unqualified, where does she even begin with her child, with her son? Can you give us language even? I mean, really basic, like tell us how to start.

SAM: (9:15) Yeah. On one hand, it's okay to just honor that, that awkward feeling is partly because this is sacred and this is vulnerable. And this is a unique part of our existence as human sexuality is. And so right. We're the only species that covers our bodies and veils ourselves. And I think that's beautiful that God, you know, set it up that way. I actually think it's because, you know, bodies are glorious, not because they're shameful, you know, but God invited us to veil ourselves. So just understanding, like, it's okay for it to be awkward. That doesn't mean you are weird. It doesn't mean you're screwing it up. It's awkward for everyone, you know, even me with my sons. And so just to start with that normalization of like, this is just a sacred part of us. And most of us come from a lot of sexual neglect, meaning like we haven't had a lot of sexual formation that was healthy or innocent and blessed, you know, a message of blessing. So just starting with, you're probably coming from your own neglect, maybe even your own stories of shame. And so it's okay for that to be there. Second, I would say to not think of this as one talk, but to think of this as hundreds of little, even one minute talks. They don't have to be an hour long. In fact, probably you and your child are not going to be able to cope initially with an hour long conversation that would probably overwhelm them with like, whoa. Okay. So trying to meet, you know, I always encourage trying to meet your child at the level of their curiosity and paying attention to where they seem at their limit and being okay to be done there. And then, you know, what are the hundreds of one minute talks? Well, some of them will probably come to you spontaneously, meaning you're watching a movie or you're listening to a song together and you suddenly hear lyrics or you see a scene that maybe paints a picture of sexuality you don't like, or paints a picture of love and romance and sexuality that is good, right? And you take a moment to highlight it, talk about it. It could be you're in public and you see that. Meaning, so some of them are going to come to you. I was on a walk with my sons. This was a year ago, I think, maybe a little more. And my 12 year old son, we were walking our dog around the block and there was a car that said, condoms prevent minivans. Yeah. On the back of this little teeny car. Right. And my son said, dad, what's a condom? My 11 year old. So I was like, okay, here's, here we go. Here's where, yeah, here we go. We're going to do our one minute conversation on condoms. And so I explained, you know, we've talked about what sex is and this is, you know, it's called safe sex and it, it's, you know, it prevents, it's like a balloon. And I explained, you know, the basics of this is for a guy and it prevents the sperm, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, he was at his limit. He's like, okay, that was more than he bargained for. Right. But, but, and it was awkward. And I was like, okay, that was the one minute talk. And he's like, all right, thank you. Now the joke made sense. But at least I would say just, if you don't honor your kid's curiosity, they're going to go somewhere with their questions. So I think even normalizing with your kid, this will feel awkward. It's okay. If this feels awkward and you can tell me if you want me to stop talking, you can tell me if it's too much, we can stop there. Just normalizing that you can tell them it's awkward for me too. This is a sacred part of us. It can feel really vulnerable. Where else? I think, you know, again, and even if it's having to cast a vision from, you know, God made this to be pleasurable. God made your body for pleasure. You have three to 4,000 taste buds, right? You have eight to 10,000 nerve endings in your genitalia. Like God wired you for pleasure. So it's casting a vision of this can be good. It's meant to be an act of love, you know, speaking to those sorts of things. It doesn't have to be like, okay, let me tackle all the hard topics. In fact, if that's all you do, you know, it can put a, it can feel weighty to it. And then I think trying to read your son, your child, just with what's, where are they at? What's the culture around them in their friend group? What do you think is some of their questions? Just kind of guessing a little bit. What are you hearing from their friends? What's going on? If a friend has a breakup, if there's a divorce in their friend group, if you know stuff's going on, just trying to listen in and just have a little bit of a pulse on and try to read a little bit ahead to where are they at? I think, you know, things like if they're dating, starting to talk about what it means to honor a woman. I think just trying to set yourself up to be a safe place where you're going to, you're going to actually honor their questions. So like my 15 year old son has come home and said, dad, what does 69 mean? Dad, what is, what is, that's what she said. What are those jokes? My sons have asked me like, how do you know when you're ready to marry? What, how do you ask a girl out? What do you do on a date? Like just, you know, those are all sex talk conversations and you don't have to say everything. Right. Like when my son asked me, what does 69 mean? I was like, Oh, wow. Okay. And I was like, well, there are different positions you can have sex in. And that's where we left that one. So that was a 10 second conversation.

MEGAN: (16:08) Yes. And I, you know, I didn't be 10 seconds. Yes. Right.

SAM: (16:12) But it was, you know, I'm going to at least give him an answer that honors, and he didn't ask more. I was waiting to see if he was going to ask more. But you know, for 13 or 14, that's where that was enough. Okay.

MEGAN: (16:30) So I'm hearing two things that I love. Um, the first one is that everything you've said in this whole podcast has this underlying river of relationality rather than behavior. That's everything you've said has relationships. So if we don't get past the 10 seconds, it still has this relational quality. It's okay for us to go, Oh, wow. Okay. That's when I didn't see coming, but here I'm here for it. You know? So by doing that, you're still creating that safe container for your kids to be able to talk to you about things. And I think, I think that's a big part of the essence of, of your book and of, of all of the things you've done for all these years. And that is, let's get to the core of this. Let's get to the relational piece of this. Let's let's see about wholeness, not, and then, then out of that comes the behavior. So you're saying inside out rather than outside in, and to have that relationship with your kids, that's open and honest, nonjudgmental. Um, you can ask me the questions. If I don't know, we'll figure it out. Or the way I did it was okay. You guys, I, I never received any of what I'm trying to give you. So grace for mama. Okay. I'm going to try this with you because I love you. And you know, this is new for me too, but I'm really excited to, to build up these conversations with you and start somewhere. And so, so it's okay to say things like that. That's relational and they know I love them, even though I'm going to make mistakes and I do make mistakes, you know, we all do. So.

SAM: (18:14) Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. It's okay to say, can I get back to you? Let me think about it. It's also okay to say that.

MEGAN: (18:24) But you have to get back to them though. You have to make sure you do. Yes. So I have one more question. We've kept you a long time. I could, we could go on. Okay, good.

SAM: (18:36) I haven't even noticed the time.

MEGAN: (18:38) Oh, good. That's good. So, you know, speaking relationally, how do boys learn to separate tenderness from sexuality and then how do we help them with that reorientation that reintegration?

SAM: (18:53) Yeah. You know, there's, there's work by a woman, Peggy Orenstein. Uh, she's written, she's a journalist and she wrote a couple of books on the sex culture of high school and college age, young men and young women. And it is meaningful work to read. She interviewed like 150 young men, 150 young women to just try to get a pulse on that. Her one sentence conclusion, which I thought was powerful was when it comes to sex for women, she would say they need to learn to connect to their bodies and men need to learn to connect to their hearts. She's like, if I summarized all my work, that would be the one sentence that was powerful for me. She, what did she mean by that for young men? Well, she would say there is a, again, this is kind of the initiation, masculine initiation culture stuff, which treats sex as a commodity, as a scoring, as a points in the masculine world. Did you get some, I remember the very day that I got invited into that masculine culture myself in eighth grade, I had started going out with a girl in eighth grade. And I remember her name. I've changed her name, but we'll call her Jane. And I remember being at the vending machine and a upperclassman, I think a 10th or 11th grader came up to me and said, did you get some? And I, I didn't know what he was talking about at first. And then it clicked. He knew that I had started going out with Jane and I started hanging out with her and we had walked the mall. We did that back in the day. And we would talk on the phone and she would write me notes and colored ink that I loved. Right. And I just remember being, I just like, I felt still in my tenderness. Like I just loved the phone calls and the notes and the colored ink and the hanging out. Like I didn't, I didn't have this mindset of getting some, I maybe wanted to kiss her. I think I'd held her hand, but it wasn't a scoring, but I remember realizing like, Oh, this guy's aware I'm going out with her. And I just said, I held her hand when he asked, did you get some? And he laughed in my face and walked away. And I knew I had failed the test of becoming, you know, entering the world of men. So just understanding there's, there is a, there's a culture of that in men. And I, I think it's driven by the more ego, fragile men who use it to get status. So and Peggy Orenstein would say that that culture tends to start to separate men from their tenderness. That it's not cool anymore. You know, guys that I had a, a man tell me he remembers writing poetry to his first girlfriend. And then the football players, he was on the football team. His fellow football players hazed him in the locker room because they found out he had been writing poetry to his girlfriend. And they mocked him.

MEGAN: (22:44) I feel that right here. That just, that's heartbreaking. That's hard.

SAM: (22:48) Yes. And he was a man now married. And he said, I had totally forgotten that story, but I stopped writing poetry that day. I said, I will never do that again. And he said it through tears of like, because now he's married, trying to emotionally connect to his wife and she's missing his heart. Right. I'm not saying that's the only event, but that was one significant moment where he set aside his tenderness. So just understanding the vicious culture among men, and you're going to be left out. If you decide you're going to be a tender hearted man, unless you find good friends. And I was grateful to have found a group of friends in late college or right out of college I lived with that allowed for tenderness and it was holy. They were Christian men and I went to therapy and I had a male counselor who brought me back to my tenderness, but like, so just understanding your son will be left out. And I hate that. I hate that. Because it's, as you've said so well, it's setting a part of you aside, living half of you.

MEGAN: (24:06) Exiling a part of you in order to be, to pass the test. Right. And it's not, it doesn't even, you don't get, it's not good. You don't, what do you win? You know?

SAM: (24:19) Right. One of my, one of the most powerful quotes that Peggy Orenstein shared is from a, a college junior who said, um, I've had two hookups, two one night stands in college, two anonymous sex party hookups. And they both left me feeling empty and depressed. And like, what did I get other than I had sex with somebody? And this, this young man spoke to what you've said so well, this is already wired in you. You don't have to make this up, but he said, it didn't leave me with what I really value, which is feelings of discovery, connection, and intimacy. So here was a young man wrestling with, I tried the culture and it left me empty and depressed because I actually want intimacy and connection. And so I think there's a place, and I plan to have this conversation with my sons and have in ways about this, that the sex culture of college, the sex culture of high school to set them up with there are men, you're going to meet men who make sex about power and scoring, and you need to be aware that's going to happen. And that that's not how God wired you, you aren't made for that.

MEGAN: (25:56) I, Sam, I just have no words. This is so incredibly helpful. I want to lift out the word intimacy for a second. Because, and I do my clients know about the intimacy cake that I video that I show all the time that has nice emotional intimacy. And then really, you know, like it has like, and then the fondant is the sexual intimacy and all the different levels of intimacy. And the reason I did that video is because, um, the word intimacy people, I think just go to sex. Like that's what that means to them. And that was kind of a new thing for me in the last 10, 15 years, I actually thought of as like sharing our stories and sharing our hearts. And, you know, look at this article and let's talk about that. That's how I thought of intimacy. And I don't know if it's my autism that, you know, I took very literally but intimacy in a lot of circles just means sex. That's really a shame because it's so all encompassing of everything, right?

SAM: (27:06) Yes. Yes. Yes. Struggle. Yeah. And maybe that's a, I don't know if that's a counseling culture thing, but like, yes, we associate right.

MEGAN: (27:20) Intimacy would say I'm really struggling in my intimacy. I would think, Oh, we need to person up a little bit and start talking. I know I'm going on a rabbit trail here, but I just wanted to say it's so true. Intimacy is all the levels. It's everything and wow. When it's everything, you know, so. Sex is not intimacy. Intimacy is not sex, but sex is part of a wide array of intimacy. 

SAM: (27:50) Well said. Yes. And understanding that. And I, think one of the powerful things that happens for me with men in counseling is when they begin to, some guys have just never had their emotional selves valued. Or called out. Nobody said to them, you are fully capable of bonding and being emotionally vulnerable with your wife. Some men have just never been told that. And it's tragic. And they've never experienced that. And I'm not saying they aren't at fault for having to own that. I'm just saying a lot of men are set up to not know that or to even have a, a tasted experience of like, this is actually really pleasurable to be emotionally connected to your partner.

MEGAN: (28:43) And she wants that. She loves that. She is not going to say, wow, he's not very manly. That's not going to happen. That's what she's looking for.

SAM: (28:53) Yes. I have, you know, one client and she's given me permission to share this because I shared it in the book. You know, the tragic story of, she said, I always knew what kind of day my husband had based on how he tried to have sex with me at night. And she said, sometimes I was the thing. I felt like I was the thing that he had to conquer and it was awful. That's, I felt so used. And it, I, I've thought about that guy so often as like, what, what if he had just come home and said, I had a really hard day. Can I talk? That's probably what he needed, but the wrestling with the vulnerability of that. And obviously the harm he was creating in his marriage. And so the work was to empower her to say, I'm not okay with this. And to begin to say, you don't have a right to my body.

MEGAN: (29:51) And that's the work that I do also, as you know, is helping women understand that they're not here to be regulated on. They're not here to be used.

SAM: (30:01) Oh, that's a powerful sentence.

MEGAN: (30:03)  It's, yeah, it is so needed. And sadly, even in a lot of our church cultures, they really believe that's their whole job is to be regulated on. And that is such a lie. That is so far from what sexual intimacy is. That is, it's a poor imitation of the real thing. It's a poor imitation of the real thing. And it's painful. It's painful for everybody. And I want to bring in for our listeners, I know what it's like to have been objectified, been the woman who was the score, been the woman who was used, was regulated on, and then have to do this healing work and then turn around and teach my sons what healthy sexuality and manhood. That is, that's hero work. It's not for the faint of heart. And so as you're listening to this, if you're like me or one of our clients, you are to be so honored and respected for even listening for this far for doing the healing work in your own life so that you can raise your sons in not that you have to set aside your story.

SAM: (31:23) So well said. I just want to echo that blessing on that work as heroic. Yes, that is so powerful. What you described.

MEGAN: (31:34) And I hope that everyone listening gets Sam's book. Again, he's here in Colorado where our state is lucky to have you. And I'm so thankful for you, Sam. You have made an indelible mark in our family.

SAM: (31:54) Thank you.

MEGAN: (31:55) Your work is powerful and I just feel deeply edified and even more equipped too. And if you don't know this, I teach parenting classes, listeners to moms who are single parenting and have kids who are at times dysregulated. We do a lot of DBT skills and things like that. And actually this is where it came up, Sam, because we were all like the questions they were asking. I was like, I need help. I need to get Sam Joelman on our podcast so I can ask questions because I don't know how to answer all these questions from these moms.

SAM: (32:40) I'm so honored. And I just want to say as well, what you've described your work to work through your story of men and to make space for your son, that is wildly powerful work. So it's not just what you say. Your son will feel the difference in your presence. He will feel the space you're making for men to be more than just monsters, right? He will feel that. But again, you have to honor the monsters you've met in men. And it's not.

MEGAN: (33:15) Thank you, Sam. It has been an absolute gift to have you today. 

(33:19) I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God's self and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.