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Raising Whole Men: A Better Story About Masculinity, Sexuality, and Healing—With Sam Jolman

Season #3

Key Takeaways:

      • Sam Jolman, author of The Sex Talk You Never Got, joins Megan in discussing men's and young adult's sexuality.
      • They discuss culture and how to approach difficult topics with sons.

Notable Quotes:

      • "They didn't know to think richly about their own heart and being what I call in the book...to be a lover, you know, because the reality is men are just as deeply capable of emotional human connection as women. And women are just as sexually wired as men..." — Sam Jolman
      • "...so women just kind of drop this whole sacred, feminine sexuality on the floor, like it's not there. And then men drop their deep emotional need for connection on the floor, like it's not there. And so you're helping people to tap into those things that are actually already there and they just haven't been exercised." — Megan Owen
      • "You're actually wired like Adam, to be a lover, to be a poet, whether literally or...emotionally, figuratively, like this has deep connections to you. You're made for deep connection. You're made to be in awe of beauty..." — Sam Jolman
      • "...I've never seen a man in my office outgrow his desire for his mother's blessing. It changes obviously, as you come of age and get more independent and live a separate life. But I've sat with so many men who weep tears over their longing for their mother to bless them as much as their fathers. So, I hope that speaks hope." — Sam Jolman

Resources:

MEGAN: (0:03) This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. 

(1:11) Hi friends, Megan Owen here with Mountain City Christian Counseling. Welcome to Pretty Psych. Today, I am over the top excited to have Sam Joelman with us on Pretty Psych. Sam, he is a trauma therapist, MA, LPC. He has over 20 years of experience specializing in men's issues and sexual trauma recovery. Being a therapist has given him a front row seat to hear hundreds of men and women share their stories. His writing flows out of this unique opportunity to help people know and heal their stories and find greater sexual wholeness and aliveness. He received his master's in counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and was further trained in narrative-focused trauma care through the Allender Center at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. Sam lives here in Colorado with his wife and three sons. Together, they enjoy exploring the best camping spots in Colorado in a pop-up camper. Sam goes to therapy, loves fly fishing, and can often be found trying to catch his breath on the floor of his local CrossFit gym. Sam, welcome. We are so happy to have you today.

SAM: (2:29) Oh, Megan, the feeling of joy and excitement for this is mutual. I have deep respect for your work in the world. I'm a fan of yours. I follow your work and love the voice you're bringing to such important suffering in the world and how you speak to that. So the respect is very mutual.

MEGAN: (2:51) It is so mutual. Well, I was just telling Sam before we started that we were on the list of people to receive his book early. I'm not sure what that list is called exactly, but we had the emails. I was so excited when I found out about your book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, because I am also a single mom, like most of my clients. Probably 80% of them are single mothers. I have two sons. I have two daughters, two sons. It was already difficult for me to have regular sex talks with my girls because our generation just didn't receive that from anybody. So to be able to talk to my son about whole masculinity and sex in a healthy way was super challenging for me. And so your book was an absolute gift to our family.

SAM: (3:46) Thank you. That is such an honor as a writer to sit for so many hours alone. I actually printed off these little pictures. They're up here on the wall of readers. I just printed stock photos of people reading books so that I had somebody to pray for. And I printed men and women and old and young and just like, all right, God, give me stories. And so, man, and I cried so many tears at those prayers. So to meet and hear stories like yours, it's just, it's like a homecoming. It's like, oh, those are you and your son and your family, just readers stories are for that to be the fulfillment of who I was praying for. So thank you for sharing that. That means a lot.

MEGAN: (4:39) This is emotional. It was just such a gift. And we'll put, of course, we'll put links to your work within this podcast. But before we go into that, I do want to ask you, Sam, what led you to write this book? What were you seeing in boys, men over and over in your counseling office?

SAM: (5:00) Yeah, you know, I think we're, this is a setup for men and women, but the sense that I got is, you know, that sex is for men. Romance is for women is what is kind of the setup that we're taught. Right. And so, you know, as a man, you know, sex is what you really want, emotional connection, and all of that is what women want, which I think is such a curse on both men and women, because it sets women up, obviously, to be just, you know, you give out the sex. It's not that you are sexual in yourself, and that men are not capable of deep emotional connection. And so I think just seeing in my office, how wrong that was, how deeply men want connection, but they feel it's almost odd, you know, to be a man who wants emotional connection. And so I think there was a sense of like, how do I help men start to think more deeply about their sexuality, their hearts, their longings. A lot of men would come into therapy as well. You know, and whenever the topic of sex would come up, it would be really a conversation around, am I behaving or not behaving? Am I lusting or not lusting? Am I looking at pornography or not looking at pornography? And there was a sense of, they only saw it as good or bad behavior as well. They didn't know to think richly about their own heart and being what I call in the book, you know, to be a lover, you know, because the reality is men are just as deeply capable of emotional human connection as women. And women are just as sexually wired as men, right? These are not separate categories. I mean, the song of songs, we need to look no further than that. Both lovers love sex and are deeply emotionally connected to each other and love each other. So, you know, I think God gives that picture. I mean, they're writing poetry to each other. How do I help, you know, men enter their sexuality with a deeper, fuller heart was the desire. And then, you know, a big push into this was the Me Too movement and seeing, you know, I think the whole world was witnessing, you know, the reality that of men, of women suffering anything from severe trauma, sexual trauma to daily cat calls from men. And it wasn't only men, right? That were—people were sharing their stories and it wasn't only women sharing stories of suffering. It was also men, but through that time, you know, it felt like the world was asking, like, is this just what men are? Are men just this way, right? And even the church has a version of that. Like it's every man's battle you're going to lust. It's just kind of your, your inheritance as a man and feeling like, man, this is such a horrible picture of masculine sexuality. And knowing as a Christian, the story of Eden and knowing that this God made male sexuality. I know he made it for good. What is that good? That it's meant to give a man's personal life, but the world, his, his lover, his wife, but the world in general. So those were kind of the setups. And then of course, being a young man and not having had a sex talk and all that I suffered on that road, entering my own therapy and finding my own way to embodying sexuality well. And so I'm writing to the young man in me as well. It's probably most writers are, right? We're writing to younger selves. So I would say those things converged.

MEGAN: (9:26) Beautiful. Thank you for that. So we're seeing a setup for men and women to, you know, as you're talking, I have this visual of a human and half of them is like laying on the floor untapped. Right. Because, because we are told this, this is how women are. This is how men are. And you don't get to have that. And you don't get to have that. As far as sexuality goes. And so women just kind of drop this whole sacred, feminine sexuality on the floor, like it's not there. And then men drop their deep emotional need for connection on the floor, like it's not there. And so you're helping people to tap into those things that are actually already there and they just haven't been exercised. Right.

SAM: (10:16) Yeah. Yeah. That's a powerful picture. And I think it's an accurate one, right? To disown half yourself. Right. And, and, and really as you're naming well, the glory of God in your full humanness. Right. That's well said.

MEGAN: (10:35) And what I've been learning from you and from others is that when you're able to, to, I don't know, tap into it. I don't know if that's a great way to say it, but when, when you connect, when you connect with that part that would normally be laying on the floor because you've been told it's not alive, you really feel better. Like you have a wholeness of, Oh, I don't have to just lop off this part of me and I get to be a full female and he gets to be a full male because he's bringing this in as well. It's not— I imagine it's scary for men to say, okay, I'm standing on this precipice and there's emotional connection there. And I've never really experienced that. I didn't know I could, I didn't know I was supposed to, am I still going to be masculine? Does that happen?

SAM: (11:27) Right. Yes. I— you know, it's, it's strange. I've been surprised. And also I guess in the end, not surprised, but men will come and say things like, sometimes I feel more like the woman in the relationship because I want the emotional connection. And I'm like, why do we have to say it that way? Right? But they do because it's like the man, they feel like they're disowning their man card. Right? Say like or a man that said to me, I know I'm just supposed to always be ready, but I'm actually missing romance with my wife right now. And again, I think they're speaking to this pressure of like, you're supposed to just want sex, but even as you're saying so well, even the men that I, that maybe feel more in that category of, no, I want sex. I'll ask them like, what do you love about sex? And they'll say things like, you know, well, it's the time I feel most wanted or most desired by my wife. It's when I have her full attention or I feel special to her or I feel connection. It's more the depth of affection. So it's things that in the end come back to their emotional selves.

MEGAN: (12:54) That's connection. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I see what you're saying. You can't really separate most of the time. You can't, you know, a lot of men that you've experienced this really is an emotional sex is emotional for them.

SAM: (13:07) So, yes.

MEGAN: (13:08) Wow. Okay. All right. Well, this is exciting. I'm loving this conversation. So what do you think, Sam, most boys don't receive emotionally or spiritually around sexuality growing up?

SAM: (13:24) You know, I think so quickly the conversation, and again, I'm, there's not a, I don't think this is, you know, evil intent in the parents. I think it's been kind of the cultural air we breathe. There's such a quick push to, you know, here's what sex is kind of the birds and the bees or the mechanics of it. And they're very quick push to purity, within Christian circles, you know, so, you know, here's how it works. Don't screw it up. Right. And there's no, there's quick, a quick conversation about lust. And, I think it makes men feel that their sexuality is certainly true of me that their sexuality is kind of a monster that they need to contain or put in a cage or they're going to, you're going to be fighting this part of you, your whole life, just get ready. And it, there's not a blessing of like, you're actually wired for sensuality. You're actually wired like Adam, to be a lover, to be a poet, whether literally or, you know, emotionally, figuratively, like this has deep connections to you. You're made for deep connection. You're made to be in awe of beauty, right? You're wired. Just like you would see a sunset. You're wired to see beauty in a woman. And people in general, you know, I had a reader, a father who actually, his kids go to my son's school and he stopped me and with tears in his eyes told me he had read my book. He had sat down with one of his sons over breakfast, to have the sex talk. And he said to be able to tell my son about how beautiful sexuality is and how he's wired. He said he and his son were crying tears of joy at like, he, he said to be able to tell my son, you, you get to fall in love with a woman. Like you see a beautiful sunset, you know, that was a door that was so helpful for him. And he had said he'd never had that blessed inside of him. So I think just those capacities to me, either there's nothing said. And so men kind of find their way or end up talking to their friends, or sadly more nowadays go to pornography for their sex education. Right. Or they get something like a purity talk that just sort of keeps them again at setting up, setting it up as an animosity towards your sexual self.

MEGAN: (16:26) This is so important, Sam. And as you're talking, I'm thinking about my clients, our audience, the, our coaches, the women I work with, there are so many complexities with raising our sons. So a lot of us have been doing it alone, and their fathers, our boys fathers are abusive. And so there's no blessing coming to them from their father. So we are trying to be mother and father in a lot of ways. And not everybody, I mean, some people like some people have a, like some of my moms have a father who could do that for their children. But most of the women that I've worked with for the last 15 years are on their own a hundred percent. And then to make it even more complex, their fathers, they were addicted to porn. And so I know for me, I brought in, cause my kids were all four of them were real little when I left, but I was staunchly against porn. I knew what it had done to our marriage, to me, to my kids. I knew what it had done. And so I had that, you know, but I didn't know how to manage any sort of healthy sexuality for my boys, which, you know, I've talked to them. I've asked their forgiveness for not knowing what to do, what to say, but also because of my work, I think they sometimes felt as though men, men's sexuality was predatory. And because of that, they were hurt by that. And I'm trying not to cry as I say this, I've asked their forgiveness. They love me there. You know, we have a good relationship and a lot has been healed, but because of the nature of working with abused women, men are seen as predatory. So let me ask you this and get your opinion on it. I think I'm sharing my opinion on it, but for women like me and for our clients, sometimes we accidentally communicate to our boys about male sexuality without realizing it. So can you join me in talking about how we sometimes can talk about sexuality in a way that make boys feel dangerous or shameful and what we do about that?

SAM: (19:08) Yeah. You know, as much as I'm casting a vision for a different picture of masculine sexuality, obviously, you know, the, the subtitle of my book was reclaiming the heart of masculine sexuality, because I think without that heart, without that lover heart, without that heart of awe and honor and respect and reverence, right? Male sexuality tends to get put into the category of power or ego boosting or violating, taking right? Things go really bad. They can not saying they always do, but it can get pretty savage. I carry a lot of tenderness. My own, as I share in my book, my own mother had a very horrific story of suffering harm at the hands of really evil, sexually evil men. And she gave me permission to share that story in the book. So I, you know, even grew up under an awareness of her fear. And, and that was part of my gauntlet of like, you know, how do I interpret what her body says when she's afraid, you know, and I could read that and know that. So it's okay that that's there. And it is an important part of the story to tell. And I think all men understand that there is a culture in mass. There's a masculine culture that uses sex for ego stroking for, for initiation, for power, for status, right? It is why we have the culture of even something as simple as our sex joke culture, but the hazing culture that happens in locker rooms or sports teams or high schools or colleges, right. And even guys who are adult men you know, there can be a culture of sharing pornography or just even what a man is doing in secret, whether it's with, you know, a culture of men or not. So that's an important story to tell as well to say, sexuality can go here. It can leave your lover heart and go over to, to the ego stroking as I call it, right. The building up your ego and having power over. So I actually think that's an important conversation to have. And I think it's okay for mothers to have probably, you know, potentially even specifically as your children are late teenagers, early twenties to share parts of your own story, like men that you've met and, and right. To be able to share men that you've experienced who are good versus men who are harmful. What was the difference? What did you appreciate? Those stories can be just as initiating and helpful. So I would want to start by normalizing. It's okay. That parts of your story are present. It's best that you know, when they're showing up right. That you've done. And I, this probably goes without saying, but let me say it on behalf that you've done enough work around your, your experience of men that, you know, when you're in your triggers, even if it's an hour later and you're like, Oh no, I think I was triggered. Right. That even that is okay. If so that can— your sons can experience like, Oh, okay. It's okay. It's okay for them to know that part, that that happens. And I love that you did the repair work to say, I'm so sorry. I think I cast a vision that was partly specific. What I hear you saying is specific to my suffering. And let me tell you the rest of the story. I think being able to know, I will say this as a, as a son and I, I wanted my mother's blessing as much as I wanted my father's blessing of my sexuality. I wanted to know that there was a path for me to be sexually alive and also safe. That those didn't have to be separate. And so, you know, as much as we talk about, you know, fathers initiating sons and having these conversations, I think it's important, but like, I wanted it just as much from my mother to know I could be a good man and stay connected to my sexuality, that those didn't have to be separate. So I would want to just say, your voice so deeply matters to your sons. And can they tell you that? Probably not, you know, maybe as they come of age, you know, in their twenties, they can maybe say actually, you know, maybe they can start to find a voice for parts of this hunger. But so no matter where you are in the journey, if you feel like, oh, shoot, I've reacted out of my own story. There's always space for repair. There's no expiration date on this conversation. Would it be good to have at 13, 14, 15, as you come of age? Sure. Does that mean at 25, you're too late? No, I've never seen a man in my office outgrow his desire for his mother, his mother's blessing. It changes obviously, as you come of age and get more independent and live a separate life. But I've sat with so many men who weep tears over their longing for their mother to bless them as much as their fathers. So I hope that speaks hope.

MEGAN: (25:39) Thank you.

SAM: (25:40) Yes.

MEGAN: (25:41) I hope for the mothers who are listening that this reaches a deep place in you, like it just did for me. Thank you, Sam. I needed to hear that.

SAM: (25:55) I really appreciate that. Yes.

MEGAN: (25:58) Okay. So Sam, you're talking about, you know, we may not have had these conversations with our sons at 12, 13, 14. It's scary. I think for us, it was scary for me to have talks with my girls. Now it's natural. So I do think that it gets better. Like if you're scared, just do a little bit and then it's going to, it will get easier. It will get better. It will. We're more comfortable. But what do we do when, say, our 14 year old son comes and says, mom, I've been looking at pornography and I don't know what to do. How do we do that as mamas?

SAM: (26:43) I think first and foremost for any parent, father, mother, single parent or not, you know, that is, that's heavy. And so being able to regulate yourself to start with like, okay. Just breathing through that. Then I would say, I think it's important to treat a 14 year old struggling with pornography is different than a 35 year old struggling with pornography. A 14 year old struggling, struggling with pornography does not have the depth of the hardness of heart, does not have the depth of sophistication to know and be aware of all their getting drawn into. And so being able to separate, I'm not talking to a hardened man who is more culpable, more responsible, more aware of the harm of all of this, right? Do 14 year olds know about the misogyny inherent in the sex pornography industry? No, probably not. Right. Do they know all that is being scripted for them? No, I would say no. And so starting with saying, okay, my 14 year old coming to me, my 17 year old coming to me, my 19 year old coming to me is not a hardened misogynistic jerk. They are, and again, older ages, I think there's more responsibility to say you're aware more. So starting with that second to say, honor that they're scared, honor that they're coming to you. Honor that to tell you has been a profoundly brave act. I would not start with punishment. If you punish at all— now restricting access, engaging them and when and where and how they're looking is important, but I would start with not treating this as like, I've got to get to a discipline issue here. I would start with—in many ways. And in many times a young man's first experience of pornography sadly is—can often be a sexually violating moment, meaning somebody has shown them pornography. And when you don't know what's coming, even if you have a concept that pornography is about naked people having sex or something, you have no idea what that's actually going to be like to experience. And so trying to see this as they've been violated, even if they've been a part of sneaking, you've got to see that they've been violated by the culture of pornography, evil. So honor that they've risked with you and then get them help. Yes. So try to understand how, when, where did they start? Did somebody introduce it to them? Did somebody sexualize them to bring this into their lives or life to hold the tension of this isn't just, Oh, you know, I told you not to do that. You know, you're grounded. You need to make room for, they're probably pretty scared because they're probably pretty traumatized by what they've seen. Pornography is so—goes so fast towards misogyny and violation. And you know, as we know, it, it so manipulates scripts and, and gender and abuse. So just understand they're probably pretty shaken. And then I think restricting access certainly how are, you know, but you've got to leave room for their bodies and their arousal script have been impacted by this. So they need help unwinding that momentum. Not if that's all you do attempts at self-soothing. It could be out of sexual curiosity, but I, you know, I believe repeated movement back towards pornography always has its roots in some self-soothing. And it's not just an overactive sex drive, right? It's no, there's things that they're trying to regulate in their lives. So trying to invite them into what potentially getting them counseling, which I would recommend to help talk through what they've seen, but continue relationship with them. Make this more, certainly more than one conversation, but I would say my experience, most men to enter into a battle with pornography primarily out of their own. So what's their ritual when and where, and do you know what's going on in you before you look, just helping them see that it may not even be sexually needed. It obviously sexually impactful, but it could be a part of their story, part of their own trauma, part of their own sexualization from somebody through sexual abuse.

 

MEGAN: (33:12) I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God's self and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.