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They Choose Him: Survivors, Evangelicalism, and the Cost of Power Part 2

Season #3

Key Takeaways:

      • Megan and Elle Arters discuss the difficulties they have had concerning politics and the Evangelical Church
      • They also talk about how politics have shaped the Church and how the Church has shaped politics.

Notable Quotes:

      • "...taking a step back and giving ourselves some grace and intention to recognize, am I dealing with a destructive person or a disappointing person?" — Elle Arters
      • "I keep trying to get this aerial view, and I see this wounded masculinity and wounded femininity in cult movements, not just the MAGA cult...but...a lot of different movements." — Megan Owen
      • "...but if we can, at the end of the day, focus on the truth, that is genuinely more powerful and it is a genuine way to deny all the other nonsense, the chaos and the lies that's going on." — Elle Arters
      • "...that hope that there is a thread that always continues, that the decisions that we make, the small actions that we take, they have a ripple effect, there are spiritual realms, there are things going on that we cannot see, there's an exponentiality to what's happening, and if you need to figure out what to do today, look in front of you." — Megan Owen

Resources:

MEGAN: (0:00) Hi, Megan Owen here from Mountain City Christian Counseling. The podcast you are about to start requires a little bit of an extra introduction, in my opinion. When Elle and I decided to talk about our current administration and its effect on survivors, we were doing our best to not come from a political point of view, although I'm not sure that we could help coming from a political point of view, because we work with survivors of deep misogynistic abuse. And because of the nature of what we do, and what we did before running a non-profit for single mothers leaving abuse, the response of the Evangelical Church to our current administration has been incredibly triggering for our clients and for many others who follow us on social media or listen to our podcast. And we just didn't think we could not address the elephant in the room for much longer, because it has affected all of us. So we're coming from the point of view of people who have been disappointed by the Evangelical Church in the last couple of decades, of people who do recognize patterns in our neurodivergence, and coming from a place of deep disappointment in the values that were set aside by the Church. This is about our disappointment in the Church, not our disappointment in the current administration. We do believe that empire is a concept all throughout Scripture that was never supposed to be joined with Christendom, and we have seen over and over and over in history where that has been disastrous. And so that is the point of what we are addressing in this part one, and then of course in part two of this podcast on Christian nationalism and its effect on survivors of abuse. And also, we want to offer some healing and perspective. Again, this is not about Republican or Democrat. It is about how we've missed our calling, how we were supposed to be the third option, how we were supposed to be the Church, a light on a hill, and we still can be. So, I hope you hear a heart in this, and I hope that you enjoy it. This is for all of you. 

(2:45) This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself.

ELLE: (3:54) And it's still holding space, where if people are like, I'm going through the different stages of grief. I'm still numb. I'm still trying to like, is there any possible way that we can still make changes? Or I'm utterly depressed and disassociating and numbing out, or I am angry, rage angry, and everybody's like, I'm not trying to rush anybody out of those stages. I've been in those stages. I've needed to be in those stages, and everybody also, you know, anybody who's kind of navigating this to embrace and feel, validated that walking through all those stages is important. I guess what I was just trying to say was my focus is for those people, whether they've landed in radical acceptance or they're in the like numbing stage. I guess I'm just saying my focus is more on the people that are like, I don't like this. I don't have the answers yet, but I don't like it. As opposed to this massive umbrella that's still trying to say, “we can all get along.”

MEGAN: (5:03) It'll all be fine. I think I'm probably thinking more about where I am as you're talking, which I think I'm really still in that grieving stage. So if anybody's following me on social media, you see posts about how I am just crushed in spirit because I, I feel like it was avoidable. Also that, that autistic sense of justice is really wanting to shine right now, you know, and that's where I am. And, and so what you're saying is you are wanting to hold space for the people who are confused and might be, I feel like they're kind of falling off a cliff and you're providing a safety net for them. And you're right there with them. You're understanding. I know that, several weeks ago when our, when, uh, Trump posted about wiping out a whole civilization, I could barely talk that day. And I feel like you might've reached out to me that day or the day after, but I was in such deep grief. And the reason for that was because as somebody who is ASD, I believe people when they say things, I, I don't understand, sometimes, the neurotypical language of, “Oh, I didn't really mean that”, that's a neuro typical thing. And I didn't quite translate that because if the president says something, I typically want to believe it. So I don't, I'm missing something that neurotypical people seem to understand, “Oh, that's just how he talks” or that's just, but I really felt like a whole people group was at risk. And then the next day that the whiplash from that shook my nervous system to the core. I continued doing sessions. I'm able to compartmentalize, but that affects us. That affected me. That affected a lot of my clients because some of them are also neurodivergent. But this is, it's causing tremendous activation.

ELLE: (7:18) Well, it's, it's chaotic. I do remember reaching out to you that week because it was, it's hit, hit, hit. It was like every day, something so inflammatory was being said by leadership that we're under a leadership that affects our daily lives. And obviously really lives all around the globe. So there was so much that particular week. And it was like the unspoken expectation of, you need to respect what the person's saying because of who this person is. Just kidding. You don't need to respect what this person's saying because ha ha, he just always talks like that. Okay. Then the next day you need to respect you. This is how you're supposed to respond. And it's none of it. There's no consistency. There's no stability. There's no, there's virtually no logic. And just again, like I think it's triggering our systems. I think it's triggering anybody's system because this isn't a healthy, peaceful, reasonable way to navigate our day to day. But then again, specifically for survivors, we've already navigated the world in different seasons like that when we are partnered or, you know, just living under a household that is chaotic like that. We know what that's like and the whiplash and the, and it's, it's designed to be like that. It's designed to destabilize us. If we feel like we've lost our footing and we can't figure out where we are and we're numb and don't even like, that's the, that's the point. So yeah. So for anybody who feels like that one, that's super normal. You have a healthy system. So it's responding to the unhealthy, which feels, you know, backwards, but that's actually a positive. That's a positive sign for us to know. Like, we, our bodies are doing exactly what they're designed to do. It's just being able to slow down and find ways to regulate, kind of re-regulate ourselves back.

MEGAN: (9:46) Exactly. And that's a good segue into what do we do when we feel those things? And, you know, just for me that day, I remember not consciously thinking this, but I'm sure my body was saying, “oh, I know what this is like. Oh, I've been here before. Oh, this is what's happening. I'm being threatened. We're all being threatened.” I mean, we weren't being threatened, but God's people, you know, God's children in another country were being threatened. And, that day I remember saying, “I'm choosing my clients. I'm choosing my children. I'm going to focus on what's right in front of me. What is my assignment today? Or what is my daily bread?” And it was every client that showed up. It was whatever child walked into the room. I remember going in the backyard, doing some grounding, taking deep breaths between sessions and just kind of preparing my heart. And I chose not to, to look at the news or listen to the news for the rest of the day. And that's just kind of how I managed it. And I guess also setting an expectation for myself, there's going to be more of this. This is what's coming. And how am I going to balance the other thing that's hard for me out is I want to sort of settle into this place of, okay, I need to put behind me all of the invisibility that I felt. When I was trying to have a voice surrounding all of this, I need to put that behind me. Okay, fine. People didn't listen. Fine. You know, what is my assignment now? Because people are confused. They are coming out of almost like in some instances, the more extreme cult end of the MAGA movement, they're coming out of this. And I am a trauma counselor. I work with people coming out of cults. How can I start to shift or rise above? I keep trying to get this aerial view, you know, and I see this wounded masculinity, wounded femininity in cult movements, not just the MAGA cult more extreme, but you know, a lot of different movements. Can I get myself to a place where I'm able to be that safety net for people coming out? And I, I'm not fully there. I'm, I feel like I've got one hand and one foot on the ladder as I'm trying to get there. But my frustration with the people of God keeps threatening to pull me down.

ELLE: (12:25) Yeah. I just, first of all, like props to you for even showing up in that space. Because it's so challenging. And I know your heart, I know your heart is like, I want to be available with as much love and compassion and, and courage and encouragement and everything, for every single person. So my background is MAGA. I'll just say it that way. You know, I was heavily involved in a church and a theology that now I would say is Christian nationalist. I would never, I didn't know that terminology at the time. I, I wouldn't have necessarily thought that, or even if I did, I may, I probably would just have been like, well, yeah, this is a good thing. This is Godly. That's what I was being told. That was my understanding of it. And it was well-meaning. So when I had my world explode and my paradigm shift, and I needed to start rethinking all the things and I started to pull out and have a better understanding, I would say a better understanding of like the pure religion of Christianity versus the kind of nationalistic Christianity. I was so, so grateful and in need of people who were kind of farther down that deconstruction journey, if you will, or farther down a Christian journey or whatever we want to label it. And they were gracious and compassionate and willing to hold space for me to enter into it. But, the critical component of that was not only that was their heart, but my heart was, I really am like, I'm really sorry. I'm, I'm having to go through a season of significant humility to, to recognize, man, I really was promoting some really unlovely anti-Christ-like behaviors and beliefs, and I now need to make this shift. And, I was just genuinely repentant of that. So I guess my point is, I think it's good and I think it's easier, but I don't want to, if it's not easy, that's okay, too. That's understandable to receive people who are coming out of this cult, who are in that space of kind of shell-shocked humility. I find it a little, a little bit easier to like, okay, come into this space and we'll work through the ramifications and the consequences of, of the decisions that you made based out of the past belief system, because, because we're all living that. So, so for, for people who are like, that's not easy, I am still mad at them. That, yeah, I get that too. Like, that's reasonable. People could have been very mad at some things that I had posted in the past or things that I have said or the ways I handled friendships in the past. Like, yeah, that's okay if they had been mad at me too, like that makes sense. But I do just want to point out, like, I do feel like ultimately that is a little bit of a, that's a different dynamic than people who maybe they're coming a little bit out of the mega cult mindset, if they're coming out of that because they don't like certain policies and behaviors that have hurt them, but that's not exactly the same thing as sort of having this like, you know, brand new, let me rethink all the things. And they're just kind of shifting away from like, I don't like how this has played out for me. And so I'm pulling out of it, but I'm still trying to, but if I could find somebody else who could figure out how to still effectively accomplish what I was and still believing and wanting to do, like, that's a very different mindset, I would argue. So if anybody's having a hard time, if they're feeling like I have to hold space for these people because they've come out of the cult, but they're still feeling like, why am I still in all these fights or arguments or there's not a softness? Yeah, that's probably why. And I, that kind of goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning, I think, is taking a step back and giving ourselves some grace and intention to recognize, am I dealing with a destructive person or a disappointing person?

MEGAN: (17:11) That delineation, that is brilliant. That is brilliant. Oh, yes. And I have, I've heard people say, you know, you need to get yourself into a good place because now you need to receive people who are coming out of this. I also don't like that necessarily, because like you said before, we need to grieve, we need to cry, we need to say, what in the world happened? And, and we have a thousand little roadblocks we have to get over to get to that place sometimes. So, if we have somebody coming out of it, and they're only coming out of it because Trump made a golden statue of himself, and that's what did it for you. That's hard for those of us who are like, so the misogyny didn't do it for you. The, you know, the files didn't do it for you. The golden statue is what's bothering, you know, you have to somehow move over that. And every time you do, every time something like that happens, you have to grieve, you have to, you have to go through all those stages to where you can get to that place. But there's no timeline. And, and please don't let anybody pressure you into thinking you have to do that right now, because you don't, you don't. And I want, you know, you were talking about coming out of a cult, which, you know, you're remarkable, you've, you've done these really hard things. You're brilliant, Elle, and all my favorite qualities that you have come from your experiences and your research and just the giant brain that you have, and I'm grateful for that. So thank you for bringing that in. So the humility of, you know what, that was me, or that could have been me, or maybe that was me, and I need to go further back, you know, those kinds of things, that's going to help. I also, I've had the opportunity to work with some who are in the MAGA Cult, and, and hear some very, very honest truths about why they would make that choice. And a lot of it has to do with their own woundedness, their past abuses, fears. In particular, there seems to be a fear that if Donald Trump can't succeed with all the horrible things he's done, then these other people can't either. I hope that makes sense. If he's redeemable, they are too. And, and that's a, that's a big area of woundedness. And what I typically say is, he's not the one who redeems you. That's, that's Christian nationalism. Believing that, yeah, that a leader is the one who redeems you. It's Jesus who redeems you. You don't need Donald Trump to redeem you for the things you've done.

ELLE: (20:15) Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I really appreciate this conversation for a bunch of reasons. We're counselors, we've gone through some of this before, and I hope it shows like, yeah, and we're right there in, in this sort of turmoil with every single other person who's trying to navigate all these things that we've talked about in our country. And there is no, there's just like, just like in every other area of our life, when we're grieving and walking through difficult things, there is no one perfect way to do it. There's no one set calendar. You're in this particular stage today in grief. I feel like today, I'm maybe a little bit more in that sort of radical acceptance. I'm wanting to do some other things, but also, you know, by the weekend, I might have a day where I'm just in dissociated mode again, or, you know, so you're going to go back and forth and that's normal. And I think, like we've said, every single stage is important for a reason, and there's no rushing through any stage, but I do hope that in these moments, maybe like for my own self, even just preaching to my own self, when I'm not in a, you know, overwhelmed by rage or overwhelmed by grief or overwhelmed by being numb, it is helpful to have these moments of hope too, where I can see, oh, well, I could do X, Y, Z, and that might not, it's not, I can't wave the magic wand and we're all just healed from grief and chaos and sin, but I can come up with some like concrete things that I can do today or for those other people who are kind of in that same situation and just offer some hope. Just like when I was in deep grief coming out of different stages of a marriage or of a church, I was so grateful for people who were down the road. I couldn't believe it, like I had a really hard time believing what they were saying, but I was grateful that they could cast a vision of like, you are not, it's not always going to be this hard or you're not only going to be in this stage, like there are, we can keep moving along individually and even collectively and as a nation and as the church at large, you know, I mean, we'll go back to, I think you touched on it earlier, but again, not at all trying to bypass anything, but just also to give us some truth to hold on to because we are faced with lie after lie after lie after lie after lie in this season. Ultimately, like Christendom continues and it continues to increase and it continues to exist. It's very nature wins and again, I'm not saying that to be cheesy or anything like that, but it's a good reminder that while all this is important and we should be paying attention to it, like you said, it's also not new, like life has been hard. There have been political, government, extreme challenges in nations from almost since the dawn of time. The church has lost its mind for so many, many, many times, many, many centuries, many, many times and we keep taking another step. There's also a way forward and Christendom never falters, ever. It always finds a way to keep going. So yeah, that's kind of been my focus of late is trying to stay focused on like, wait, that's winning and the other side, whatever, however you want to define that, whether that's spiritual and satanic or it's concrete and it's authoritarianism or however you want to label that, they want us to be focused on them. They want us to be focused and to give our power over to that fear and lies. So every time we can deny that, we can do that while grieving, we can do that while angry, we can even do that while being numb, but if we can, at the end of the day, focus on the truth, that is genuinely more powerful and it is a genuine way to deny all the other nonsense, the chaos and the lies that's going on.

MEGAN: (25:09) Perfect. That is a perfect way to end our podcast today with that hope, that hope that there is a thread that always continues, that the decisions that we make, the small actions that we take, they have a ripple effect, there are spiritual realms, there are things going on that we cannot see, there's an exponentialness to what's happening, and if you need to figure out what to do today, look in front of you. What is your assignment? Is it that child? Is it that neighbor? Is it that client? Is it that friend? Beautiful, beautiful. There's always, always hope and we always have an assignment even in the chaos. Elle, thank you so much for this incredibly important discussion. I know there's more for us to talk about. We could have kept on going. I love you to pieces. Thank you all so much for listening to Pretty Psych. 

(26:06) I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God's self and others. If you'd like some one-on-one time with me unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode, and in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.