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Crisis Groups Are Open!

Season #2

Key Takeaways:

      • Megan and Karen introduce the returning Crisis Groups, run by Karen again this year!
      • Karen describes the impact that running Crisis Groups has had on previous clients.
      • Megan explains how Crisis Groups work as well as telling of the respectful and warm environment the Groups provide.

Notable Quotes:

      • "If we don't expand and invite other people into our healing, our healing is kind of like one-dimensional, and by having a crisis group...it's a way to engage, and there's something powerful in saying something out loud in a safe place that is so healing." — Karen DeArmond Gardner
      • "It's true that there are so many perspectives that we all offer. So, if you kind of think about God being in each one of us, right, and we all have sort of a different flavor of that relationship, when we come together, like you and these three women, so all four of you, you're bringing in sort of a different aspect of God working in you." — Megan Owen
      • "...when we step into healing, we are stepping out of our time and we're stepping into God's time, which means there's no time that a day is a thousand years and thousand years is a day." — Karen DeArmond Gardner
      • "I will go to my grave...saying that people are uncomfortable with their own emotions and so they will be uncomfortable with your emotions. And so, when people are trying to shut you down or tell you you're wrong for feeling a certain way, it's because they don't even know how to be with their own emotions." — Megan Owen

Resources:

(0:00) MEGAN: This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche, the deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments, but we know that through this what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior. I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. 

(1:12) MEGAN: Hi, Karen, and everybody, welcome to Pretty Psych. 

(1:17) KAREN: Hey, welcome, Megan.

(1:20) MEGAN: Karen was just telling me why she's so excited about this podcast on groups. Take it away, Karen. 

(1:27) KAREN: You can read about it. We can tell you about it, but to actually talk about how the engagement in a crisis groups, and crisis sounds like bad, that everything's always hard, but it's a way, a place, a safe place to verbalize what you're going through and then have other people in the group reflect back to you, and each one will see something or hear something that the other didn't. Yes, perspectives. Yes, different perspectives, and when we're traumatized, when we're harmed, it happens in relationship. It's from other people. It's not something we do to ourselves normally, so healing also comes in relationship, and so we need more than it's just being God or me and Jesus. If we don't expand and invite other people into our healing, our healing is kind of like one-dimensional, and by having a crisis group, which we usually have three participants and one facilitator, and it's a way to engage, and to sometimes there's something powerful in saying something out loud in a safe place that is so healing.

(3:00) MEGAN: Yes, yes, so Karen loves groups, and we are getting ready to open up our crisis groups in the fall, and the reason crisis groups came into existence, I'm not sure, Karen, if you know this, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but Heather Elizabeth of Held and Healed, the nonprofit that helps women coming out of abuse, we were trying to think of a way to provide emotional first aid to women in crisis who could not afford therapy, and so what I ended up doing was I created a set of 12 videos, and Karen loves those videos too, and they each cover a topic, but they're only, I don't know, they're from 7 to 11 minutes long, something like that, because we, Karen and I understand, because we've been there, so when you work with us, you're not working with counselors and coaches who haven't been there. We know what this is like. We know what it's like to be in crisis and not have the bandwidth to watch an hour-long video or read a whole book to help you. This is first aid, and so we've created these short videos, and then like Karen said, in comes three women who are in crisis, and then Karen moderates, and we have this very specific format that we use, but everyone is able to reflect, so people are not just receiving guidance, counsel, and reflection. They're also receiving compassion and empathy, which as you just said, is healing, right? 

(4:47) KAREN: Yes, absolutely, and that, there's so much power in it. We keep the, with three people, we keep it to an hour, and because there's a time limit, you have 10 minutes to talk and share and uninterrupted, and that, what it allows for is the talkers, and being a fellow talker, it keeps you on track, and because when your 10 minutes is up, it's up, and if you're not a talker, if you struggle to share, it allows, it kind of creates a safe place to be able to share, and I don't want to use the word force, because that's really not the right word, but it stretches your capacity to talk when maybe you would like, that you would prefer not to, you would like, you would rather sit in the background, and it gives you that safe place to be able to share, and then we have one minute of pause, where we're just praying into it, the other ones that are just listening, and then we have, each one can reflect, we try to keep it to two to three minutes, sometimes it's really short, sometimes it can get a little long, so we have to be careful of that time, because we are on time limit, this is a 60 minute session, and we want to make sure everybody has time to share. 

(6:24) MEGAN: Yes.

(6:25) KAREN: And we will help you in that first session on learning how to reflect back, I will start that process, so that you kind of understand what we're doing, if you've never been in a crisis group.

(6:38) MEGAN: Well, what I love that you've said twice now is safe space, and that's what we need, and what do we mean by that, what we mean is that we will never judge you, right, nobody will judge you, nobody has really come in and started judging somebody else in one of these groups, but if they did, there's no doubt in my mind that Karen and I would say, okay, we're going to stop right there, we also, we may give us advice as moderators, you and I might, but we don't have everybody just giving advice.

(7:14) KAREN: No. 

(7:15) MEGAN: And that's what we mean by safe, right? 

(7:18) KAREN: Yeah, yeah, we don't want to give advice, now there are times last fall where someone wanted advice, they needed like a specific, maybe it was related to a court date that was coming up, and they needed advice, and so that's okay, that's when someone, if they have a similar experience, can speak into that, but we don't, and we also don't want to over spiritualize, or throw out scriptures, we want to be very careful with that, it's not that it's wrong, but sometimes we can throw out band-aids, 

(8:02) MEGAN: Yeah, yeah. 

(8:03) KAREN: And that don't really help at that moment, and so we do want to be careful of that, so being a word girl, it occurred to me that we talk about crisis, and of course, then I thought, maybe I should just look this word up, and see what it says, so what do we mean by crisis, and it says it's a stage in a sequence of events at which the trend of all future events, for better or worse, are determined, that it's a turning point, so crisis is a turning point, whoa, I didn't think of that, we think that that's where we just sometimes live, it's a condition of instability, or there's danger, but it's leading to a decisive change. 

(8:57) MEGAN: I love that, I kind of thought of like a hinge, or a threshold, when you said that, like it's not necessarily, oh, this is horrible, everything's going to be bad, even though it may feel that way in the moment, right? 

(9:11) KAREN: Yes, we're leading towards a turning point, a decisive change, and even though it causes upheaval, sometimes there needs to be an upheaval, like Jesus turning over the tables, there needs to be a table that in our life that may need to be overturned, because we may be believing something that isn't true about ourselves, because it's really not our voice, it's a critical voice, that's usually tied to people who have said things about us, and to us, that we have taken on, and we really believe it's us, and so what if it's not you, what if it's another voice? 

(9:54) MEGAN: Yeah, I really like this, because it ties into something I talk about often, which is cruciformity, that cruciform way of life, which is our lot, you know, when Jesus dies on the cross, he's not just showing us his love, this is his love for us, right, but he's also showing us our path, and he talks about that when he talks about the seed going into the ground and breaking open, he's talking about the bread being broken, and the cycle of that cruciform cycle is that we're crucified, died, buried, and then we rise again, and we have all these cycles of that throughout our whole lives, right, so what you and I are doing, and what you're doing specifically with the crisis groups, is we're going to get into that dark place with you before you get to rise again, so that's the piece of the cycle where we will enter in with you, which is just like what Jesus did, right, he entered into the tomb of where Lazarus was, he went to the place where the man was cutting himself, to the catacombs, to the tombs, and that's where we're going to meet you, and we're going to remind you that new life is coming, that we don't stay in the tomb forever, right? 

(11:16) KAREN: Right, I love how you said that, it's perfect, 

(11:20) MEGAN: I love that, well let me read the 12 weeks, this is okay, or some of them, these are some of the topics that are covered, now the caveat is when you're in crisis, you may not have time to watch the video, and you may not want to talk about the video, because you're in crisis, and there are a lot of things going on, and you need to talk about those things, and those things always trump everything else, so all right, so the first thing we do is everybody sort of reads through this understanding of the confidentiality, and the art of reflection, rather than maybe giving advice or a band-aid, right, like before you come, we sort of make sure everybody understands that, and then the first video is a theology of suffering, which is kind of what I just said in a nutshell, is this idea of new life, and what we're doing, then we share stories, so we share our stories, and I share my story, and I share my story from when I was, it was 2021, and I had COVID, so I share it kind of to show that I am also human and vulnerable, and then everybody has a chance to share their story, then we talk about cognitive dissonance, we go into boundaries, family of origin, we talk about our kids, self-compassion, glimmers, and nervous system regulation, isolation, we talk about narcissism, we debrief, right? 

(12:58) KAREN: Yeah, like Megan said earlier, the videos are short, but they really do create conversations of things maybe that you haven't talked about before, and obviously, if something's happened that week, you know, that trumps everything.

However, it is still a good thing. Part of listening to the videos is it keeps you engaged, and you know what other people are talking about, even if you're not going to talk about it. That's why it really is important, but we understand busy weeks. However, we do make things a priority if they're important to us, and if you're taking the time to participate in a group, you want to watch because otherwise you're kind of lost when other people are talking. 

(13:48) MEGAN: That's true. Yeah, that's true. So Karen and I have been, we've been leading these groups for a while. Sometimes we switch videos in and out depending on what's happening. I have an Advent or Christmas one for when crisis groups are overlapping with the holidays because we know what that's like to have, to have your first Christmas in the middle of chaos, right? And so we try to be fluid with what the needs are as well, and then we do try to teach this art of reflection, which I think is a really powerful tool. You hit on something. You talked about that minute. We take a minute to hold sacred space. What do you notice with that, Karen? When we take a moment to hold space after somebody shares, so somebody shares for 10 minutes, we all close our eyes. We hold space. It honors the story that was just shared, right? So there's an honoring aspect to it, and then I don't know what you do. When I hold space for that minute, I just kind of let come up what comes up, and sometimes I might get a picture of that client that's encouraging in my mind, and I might share that. Sometimes something is lifted out from what they said, and I can speak to that, or something I've noticed. What is that sacred pause like for you? 

(15:15) KAREN: I'm usually reflecting because part of what we do when someone is talking, the others are the ones that are not. We are taking notes about things that jumped out at us that they said, and often I have two pens because there's something I want to speak into, but even though I may not know what it is at that time, but there's an arrow, there's a circle that says, wow, this was big of what they said. So everybody takes notes of what stands out to them, and it's always amazing to me what stands out to each individual person. So in that place of holding space, I'm looking at those notes, and I'm praying over those notes about what to say, what was stands out, what's there that maybe, I don't want to say that they're missing, but that maybe what they're seeing isn't clear.

(16:20) MEGAN: Well, I know what you mean. Sometimes we have these blocks because the pain is so great in that moment, you can't see around it. And if there's somebody else there who says, okay, I actually can sort of see around that block, and I just want to share with you what I'm seeing, is that kind of what you're saying? 

(16:39) KAREN: Yes. There's one that comes to mind, this person had spoken, and then the person reflecting back, she saw something like none of us saw. And it was so big. It was a breakthrough moment for the one that was talking because she did not see it that way. And it really was a pivotal moment. 

(17:08) MEGAN: Yeah, that's amazing. It's true that there are so many perspectives that we all offer. So if you kind of think about God being in each one of us, right, and we all have sort of a different flavor of that relationship, when we come together, like you and these three women, so all four of you, you're bringing in sort of a different aspect of God working in you. Maybe you're in a different place. Maybe you've been through that. So sometimes it's really encouraging to hear, oh my gosh, yeah, we try not to bring in the, oh, me too. And I'm going through that also. And I know how you feel. We try not to bring that in. But every once in a while, it's kind of encouraging to hear that somebody survived that, right? 

(17:53) KAREN: Yeah, yeah. Often what instead of saying me too is what you said resonates with me.

(18:00) MEGAN: Yeah, yeah. 

(18:01) KAREN: And it's a way of saying it and not making it about you. And it's really easy to do. I'll be honest, it is something I struggle with all the time. 

(18:12) Mgean: Me too. 

(18:14) KAREN: Right? All of a sudden, it all becomes about me and I don't want to do that. And I actually, one of the first crisis groups I did, or it wasn't even a crisis group, it was a different kind of group, same format. And they called me out on it. And I was so grateful for that, because sometimes we don't realize what we're doing. And if we can't be called out on something, there's a bigger problem. But that's a way to say it. What you said really resonates with me. Then it doesn't become about you. But then they also get that, oh, wow. So it's not just me. And then it allows you to add more depth. 

(19:01) MEGAN: I think there's a difference between making it all about yourself when somebody shares, because sometimes what somebody hears is, oh, your story is more important than what I just shared. There's a difference between that and saying, you're connected to me as a human. This is a human interconnectedness. You're not alone in this, right? That's what we're trying to differentiate here. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So yes. So we honor all of the stories, lots and lots of honor. And I hear back so much positive. It's so fun to be connected to these ladies because they stay connected after the groups and then they keep encouraging each other. But you and I often get to see what's happening in their lives and some of the wins that are coming for them or, you know, found a place to live or I got a job here or isn't that amazing to be able to experience that also? 

(19:59) KAREN: Yes. I had a group kind of like in the spring and we ended before, before summer came. The group's 12 weeks long and they both want to come back for the next, the next part, because they really, even though this group was just two people, because they both needed it, we couldn't, couldn't bring in if there wasn't a third person to bring in. And so with the two of them, they looked forward every week to that group that it was something that they made a priority unless it was really something like family or they were going out of town. And then what happened is the person that could be there, if they wanted to meet, they still got to meet, but we had a whole hour between just the two of us. Now, when you have three people, that doesn't happen because if you have three where if someone can't make it, we may, we'll continue that group. But if it's two that can't make it, then we will just cancel it and we will, and it just moves out the 12 weeks.

(21:14) MEGAN: Right, right. I just thought of something else, and as you were talking about, you know, the power of a dyad of maybe there just being two people there or maybe one person there, which doesn't happen very often. It's better if everybody comes.

(21:33) KAREN: Yes. 

(21:34) MEGAN: But this art of reflection that is very specific to Mountain City, we have, we have a specific way to make sure that everybody feels seen and heard. There's power in just being heard, right? When you say something and someone says, oh, let me reflect back to you what I'm hearing you say, being seen is so healing. And, and so many times in groups, somebody, I will see somebody just weep for the healing joy that comes from somebody recognizing where they are. Yeah, that's just powerful, right? 

(22:17) KAREN: Yes, yes, it is so powerful. And, you know, you would think it, you know, it's just like a blip, but it's not a blip. We've talked about this before that when we step into healing, we are stepping out of our time and we're stepping into God's time, which means there's no time that a day is a thousand years and thousand years is a day. God can do so much in this place of healing because we've kind of stepped outside of that time. And so we think that things have to go on for like hours or it, no, it doesn't have to because everything is the healing is multiplied. I'm not sure that's the right word. I want to say. 

(23:05) MEGAN: It has a ripple effect. 

(23:06) KAREN: Yes.

(23:07) MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, the person who leaves the group that can be a loaves and fishes moment where they work with God and it sort of touches every aspect of their lives.

And it just, cause we're not limited, right? It's not limiting. I love that, Karen. I love that. Well, tell me how many groups will you be taking this fall? What are you looking at? How can people find it? 

(23:24) KAREN: Right now I'm looking at two groups to start. So that six people, however, those will be two evening groups, a Tuesday and a Thursday. However, I am open for a day group because I am at, there are times for some that the daytime works better than evening. I don't have a set date on that because I will literally just need to see the interest in that to be able to open up a daytime. It could be probably morning. So if we need to add another group, we can, I am flexible on that, but we're going to start with the two groups on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We're going to start the week of September 23rd. So September 23rd and 25th was our one. We will start. We're getting a late start because of some other commitments that I have for the beginning of the month and they will go, like I said, 12 weeks. The cost is $30 a week. If therapy is, you know, or coaching is not in your budget, this makes it more affordable for people to join and it's easier to budget. 

(25:02) MEGAN: Well, and yeah, and that's why it was created. $30 a week for Karen's expertise is pretty amazing. And then my videos also, you can still be part of the group if you're doing the one-on-one therapy and you're in crisis. I'm just going to admit right now, Karen is way better with crisis than I am. She does a lot more with crisis. She's comfortable in that place. Not that I'm not comfortable, but I've just kind of moved to a different genre, I guess, sort of a niche area of inner healing, but she's got you. She's amazing. We've received only positive feedback from all of these groups and I trust Karen with my life. So I hope that if you are in crisis and you need some emotional first aid, that you will sign up for these groups and bond, really bond with other people who know what it's like to be in your shoes. Not just the other participants, but Karen knows what it's like too. And I know what it's like also. Sometimes I think that well-meaning Christians will look at somebody who's drowning in a pool and toss a devotional at them. That's, that's that bandaid thing. It's not helpful. Like that's not helpful when you need basic needs met, right? Or when you need to know how to manage your five-year-old who's completely dysregulated, or when you are trying to wrap your mind around how people in your own family can turn against you. Reading a devotional, that's great, but what we need is that stability, that first aid. 

(26:39) KAREN: Yes. I would rather rip a band-aid off than put one on. And because sometimes the band-aid is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound or a broken leg.

(26:54) MEGAN: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just had a memory of, I was really young. I feel like I was pregnant with Mila, who's now 21. So it was a long time ago, but it was my first introduction to how evangelicalism could actually be harmful. And what we had was there was a woman that I knew who was helping me with like, we were doing sort of this orphan ministry with these kids that were coming over from Belarus. We were doing that together and I was real pregnant with Mila and had a toddler. And during the course of that, she found out that her husband had been sexually abusing their daughter for years, their 16 year old daughter. So she separated from him or she actually pushed him out. The church housed him after bailing him out of jail. They housed him in their extra like parsonage. And they ostracized her and her three children because, and they would, I would go over there and be with her. I helped her pack. I didn't really know what to do exactly. But I did know that the church people were saying things like, she's unhinged, she's out of control, she's crying in front of her kids. And I remember thinking, of course she is. They want her to behave well right now. Like what is it they want her to do? She needed emotional first aid and that church was failing her big time and they did fail her big time.

(28:40) KAREN: And that was 21 years ago and it hasn't changed. It hasn't really changed. We're getting really bad advice and told things because we want to keep it pretty and it's, none of it is pretty and it's bad. And we need to acknowledge that of course you're crying, of course you're angry. I'm always concerned if a woman is not angry after what she's been through. I'm concerned. There's a problem here. Well, I forgave them. No, you can't forgive something that you haven't even dealt with, that you haven't even acknowledged. That's one of the biggest band-aids that I love, ripping off. That's a fast one. That's not a gentle peel it back slowly. This one is stuck in the hair and you need to just rip it off and it's going to hurt. But it's like, we don't talk about forgiveness. That's an end of the line thing. We want you, the whole part of grief is anger. Bitterness is tied to that because we should be bitter over something that happened to us that was so horrible. It's not a place you're going to live or dwell in. You're not going to build a house out of bitterness or anger, but it is something that you have to experience and to be able to let it loose in a safe place and that it's okay.

(30:32) MEGAN: Yeah, I don't know how many times I've said to a client, is it okay that you feel angry right now? And sometimes they say, yes, it is. And there's the band-aid's been ripped. But other times they say, I guess, you know, and I say, yes, it is okay for you to be angry. I will go to my grave, Karen, saying that people are uncomfortable with their own emotions and so they will be uncomfortable with your emotions. And so when people are trying to shut you down or tell you you're wrong for feeling a certain way, it's because they don't even know how to be with their own emotions. They're just trying to make themselves comfortable. And so we, Karen and I, are comfortable in the uncomfortable. And that's what our amazing teacher and somebody we both love, Diane Langberg, talks about is being able to listen to the unspeakable. And that's what we're doing in these crisis groups, right? 

(31:39) KAREN: Yes. Yes. It's so important because most of us didn't have a safe place, or we tried to share with somebody and they pushed us away. Because as Megan said, they're not comfortable with their own emotions, or they're actually going through something that they haven't even been able to express yet. And they don't even understand why they're pushing people away. I've pushed people away when I was very unhealthy because their emotions and their stuff so overwhelmed me that I just shoved them off a cliff, so to speak. And that's what it feels like when someone does that to us. That's why the crisis groups are so important because nobody's going to push you off a cliff because what your story is too overwhelming. 

(32:33) MEGAN: That's right. That's right. And we're not going to correct your behavior. You shouldn't feel this way or just trust God more. That's not going to happen. 

(32:41) KAREN: Yeah. And we don't react if you use colorful language. 

(32:49) MEGAN:That's right.

(32:51) KAREN: Because sometimes that colorful language is the only word that fits at that moment. 

(32:55) MEGAN: Yeah. Sometimes there's no other word, right? 

(32:58) Karen: There's no other words. And so that it's you can just come just as you are, or who you think you are, and connect. That's what we want. It's about connection.

(33:14) MEGAN: Yes. And also, Karen, when you just said that, I thought about sometimes, again, well-meaning churches will say, come as you are, come as you are. But as soon as you come as you are, they start trying to make you into something you're not, right? That's not going to happen in these crisis groups. We're not going to try to make you into anything else. The connection, like what you just said, is what's important. So, all right. So, sign up for our crisis groups. You can find them on our website. We're going to include the link. Our main website is www.mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. You can read all about it there. But go ahead and look in the caption and you'll find the link. Show us your interest and we will get you in. We can't wait to see you there. Karen, thank you so much. You are amazing. 

(34:06) KAREN: Thank you so much, Megan. 

(34:09) MEGAN: I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought, as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self, and others. If you'd like some one on one time with me, unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com. To help this podcast reach more people, do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest. My name is Megan Owen, and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode. And in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.