Called to Heal: Our New Path for Pastoral Trauma Support

About the Guest(s):

Karen DeArmond Gardner: Karen is a distinguished DV (domestic violence) trauma advocate renowned for her extensive work with survivors of domestic abuse. As the author of "Another One Free," Karen draws on her rich experience to lead support groups, offer guidance, and walk alongside women on their healing journeys. From her role at Mountain City to her impactful book, Karen's dedication to helping individuals untangle personal trauma and rediscover their self-worth is evident in her practice and teaching.

Episode Summary:

Join host Megan Owen, a pastoral trauma counselor, on this enlightening episode of Pretty Psych, where the profound impacts of evangelical Christianity and cultural dynamics on the psyche are deconstructed. Megan welcomes Karen D'Armond Gardner, a renowned domestic violence trauma advocate, to discuss the impactful program that Megan created.

Karen was the first to undertake this incredible certification process and Megan asks Karen about her experiences with this program. Join Megan and Karen as they dive deep, discussing the impact that it has had on Karen.

Key Takeaways:

• Karen speaks about how vital it is to listen and fully focus on whomever may be ministered to. She talks about how much the program has helped her grow in that area of her life.
• MCCC will offer this 12-week program starting in the fall of 2025. Many topics will be covered on how to be an active listener, how to take one's mental blocks away, and 
• Megan and Karen emphasize the importance of variety in experiences and personality. There is no "one-size-fits-all" when it comes to ministering.

Notable Quotes:

• "But reading that [The Lost Art of Listening], it just opened my eyes to sometimes why we don't listen." — Karen DeArmond Gardner
• "If I'd have done something that worked for one person, cookie cutter would not have worked with others. With each one of these clients, it might have worked with one, but not with the other ones." — Karen DeArmond Gardner
• "The shepherds were not taking care of the people. And God said, because you've done all this, I will go find my sheep. And that's what I feel like. It's one on one of finding the vulnerable people that have been overlooked, who have not been heard, who have no one who understands." — Karen DeArmond Gardner
• "We want to spread the love, and I feel really good about the curriculum, I worked really hard on it." — Megan Owen

Resources:

• Mountain City Christian Counseling: mountaincitychristiancounseling.com
• Karen DeArmond Gardner's Book: "Another One Free"
• Michael P Nichols and Martha B Straus: "The Lost Art of Listening"

Delve into this episode for insights into trauma recovery through community, and stay tuned for more empowering discussions on Pretty Psych.

If you would like to take part in this program, email Megan Owen at [email protected]

Episode Transcript

0:00:03 - (Megan): This is Pretty Psych, the podcast where we discuss and deconstruct the impact of evangelical Christianity and cultural phenomena on the psyche. The deep and sometimes uncharted territory of the mind. We venture into raw, rough, and sometimes triggering moments. But. But we know that through this, what we will find will be pretty fascinating, amazing, and pretty intelligent. My name is Megan Owen. I'm a pastoral trauma counselor, and I have spent decades studying the science of human behavior.

0:00:43 - (Megan): I draw parallels between therapy and connection to God, self, and others. I love what I do, and I will walk hand in hand with you through the fire to help you find healing and rest. Most importantly, I want to bring you home to yourself. Okay. All right. Welcome to Pretty Psych. Megan Owen here, pastoral trauma therapist with Mountain City Christian Counseling. I have with me the beloved Karen d' Arman Gardner, pastoral trauma coach.

0:01:26 - (Megan): I'm so glad we're here today, Karen.

0:01:28 - (Karen): Yes. I am so excited.

0:01:30 - (Megan): We have so much to talk about. Karen and I, we are still sort of riding the high from the retreat that we facilitated last weekend in Colorado Springs. So exciting. So many breakthroughs. It was so beautiful.

0:01:43 - (Karen): Yes, it was. It was intimate. It was vulnerable. There were moments of breakthrough that were just, like, seem maybe tiny, but they were huge. They were just huge. And I don't know if everybody realized how big those moments were.

0:02:02 - (Megan): Yeah. Sometimes I feel like just the awakening or the recognition of something is the biggest step because then we know what to do if we acknowledge that it's there. So. Yeah, I felt that, too. It was just beautiful. It was just beautiful. Love all the ladies who came. And I want. We want to see everybody back next year and more and more. Yes. I've already reserved the rooms because it fills up so quickly. So we already have dates for July 23rd through 25th of 2026.

0:02:35 - (Karen): Yes.

0:02:35 - (Megan): Yeah. So very excited. Well, today, Karen and I want to talk to you all about something new that we did together. We're very excited about it. It was a lot of work, and it paid off.

0:02:48 - (Karen): And.

0:02:49 - (Megan): And that is the pastoral trauma coaching certification that I created. And I created a lot of it for somebody like Karen, who was. She was already a DV coach or is a DV coach. I'm sorry. Mostly for advocacy. So for women who are leaving abuse and anybody who knows her, you know her beautiful story. She has her beautiful book that's very powerful, and she helps a lot of women in crisis. She was just telling me she had four calls yester.

0:03:21 - (Megan): She's just amazing. So she has had that advocacy training, and the coach Training. And, and I think Karen felt like she was. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you kind of told me you felt like you were missing the other side of that coin, which is the pastoral piece. Would that be.

0:03:41 - (Karen): Yes, I knew I wanted to do something else. I just wasn't really sure what that would be. And then when you suggested that, it was like, yes, that is what I've been wanting to do. So, yes, it was.

0:03:56 - (Megan): I remember you saying, Karen, when I sent you the description or the, you know, the, the offering, you said, it's everything I never knew I wanted and needed.

0:04:05 - (Karen): Right? Yes.

0:04:07 - (Megan): Yes. So we, Karen and I spent 12 weeks in pretty intensive training. Right? Lots of intensive training. The certification really was designed to bring the skills of being a pastoral trauma coach in a traumatized environment. Because our clients are traumatized, they're often in crisis. So how do we approach it as a pastor? And so that was. It was so exciting, Karen, to see you. It wasn't like you had a lot of aha moments. It was more like you.

0:04:43 - (Megan): You so fully embraced it. You. It was like you were kind of thirsty for it and you were drinking it up, you were soaking it up. And our very first week was on becoming a pastor. And that was a new thing for you, right?

0:05:00 - (Karen): Yes. And I know I've always been somewhat pastoral and it just helped me to hone my skills. I had all the. I felt like I had all these raw skills and I needed to hone them. I needed to be. I needed to be a better listener. I needed to be able to hold space more. And it's. It was all the areas that I was learning, but I needed to go deeper in it. I needed to expand all my capabilities to do it, to actually be a coach and not just someone that's connecting with people on a one off.

0:05:44 - (Megan): Right. Okay. So when I think about coaching, I think about structure. I think about maybe tailored plans for that specific person and sort of guidance, right?

0:05:59 - (Karen): Yes.

0:06:00 - (Megan): And. And this tra, the pastoral trauma certification, seemed to have balanced some of that.

0:06:06 - (Karen): Yes.

0:06:07 - (Megan): So now you have another tool in your bag for holding space for listening or drawing out of people maybe what they already have inside of them. Is that accurate?

0:06:20 - (Karen): Yes. Yes, it was. One of the biggest things I think I learned from you is as you're listening, is picking up on the small things that they say that just like if you're not really listening, they will. You'll miss them. And then being able to come back to those and ask a question about that and so that made. That brought aha. Moments. And I've always listened. I was not a good listener. And so when I was listening to somebody, I'd be already forming in my mind what I was going to say.

0:07:00 - (Karen): And it was really having to unlearn that. To just listen. To listen, to take notes, to jot things down and to pick up on the small things that were really the big things.

0:07:16 - (Megan): Thank you, Karen, for saying that. Yeah. The nuance. So I'm just gonna kind of run through. We did 12 weeks. Karen led a few groups, right. Two or three groups.

0:07:30 - (Karen): I had three different clients, individual clients. And then I was running a crisis group.

0:07:35 - (Megan): Okay. So we got to meet. We had two hours per week of supervision together. You and I did. And then you received permission from your clients to talk with me if needed. And so we were able to. At the things that came up, not just to problem solve at all, but what's underneath there and maybe why am I responding in the way I'm responding and sort of looking at what we might be projecting ourselves or.

0:08:07 - (Megan): Yeah, any. Any. Anything that was in the way, I guess, like any noise or anything inside of ourselves. Right, right. Yeah. Transference. We did a lot about transference. Yeah.

0:08:20 - (Karen): And it was interesting because all three clients were just completely different places. But to watch the progression with each one of them. And that's why it's important to create something or some structure around each individual. It's not cookie cutter. If I'd have done something, cookie cutter would not have worked with these. With each one of these clients. It might have worked with one, but not with the other one.

0:08:52 - (Karen): And. And then it helped, like learning more about some of the grounding exercises, the tapping. And I only had one client where that was a really big deal for the other two were not in that place, but tapping helped the other one doing body scans. Again, the other two weren't really into it, but I had one that it totally helped her because of where she was to say, oh, this what I feel. Oh, this is the emotion tied to it.

0:09:23 - (Karen): And then as weeks go by, that she sees, okay, we do another body scan. It's like, oh, that one's not there anymore. And so those were really powerful moments for her that really were not a big deal to the other ones.

0:09:38 - (Megan): Yeah, so what? And this was a big part of why we did this. Because I love, I like, I love our source program. It is. It's structured, it has specific topics, but it's no replacement for that one on one intuitive interaction where you're truly Getting to know this one client and how they work and what they need and also recognizing that we don't really need to insert very much at all. Right. Because they have the spirit of God in them.

0:10:14 - (Megan): They may not know that. And a big part of being a pastoral counselor is to help them to see that. Right. Make those connections. But like you said, so with one client, the connection to body was really, really important, but it wasn't really a good fit for the other two. And I'm sure there were so many other things like that.

0:10:35 - (Karen): Yes, absolutely. One was just helping her to talk in a language without over spiritualizing. And for her it was the first time she had anybody to talk to about all the things going on. And so it was a lot more listening and, and, and allowing her time to process.

0:11:00 - (Megan): That's beautiful. And I love that you did that. And I know that you have made indelible marks on all of these women. I mean, who knows how many women, countless women over the years. So, Karen, I want to go ahead. I'm going to read through our 12 topics O to remind us, refresh us. But then I want you to tell me maybe what was one of your favorites or what, which one was more impactful? So, so week one was on becoming a pastor.

0:11:29 - (Megan): Week two was practical counseling techniques and ethical considerations. Three was trauma theories. Week four was emotional spiritual pain and depth psychology. I remember you liked that a lot. Depth psychology. Five was trauma modalities. Six was CO regulation and coping skills, which you've already mentioned. Seven, we touched on personality disorders like CPTSD versus Borderline because those are often confused. We talked about PTSD versus complex trauma.

0:12:05 - (Megan): Week eight, reflective and empathic empathetic listening. Week nine was spiritual correlation and connections. Week ten was healing as individual, which is what we just talked about. It is individual. And week 11 is common therapeutic pitfalls. And week 12 was relationships as a resistance to pain. And so with every week Karen had a reading and then we had two hours of supervision and then she was offering her skills to these women and we were talking about that. So in reading that, did anything spark something in you?

0:12:44 - (Karen): Yes, I forgot about the, the depth one. That, that depth therapy that was really impactful and, and you gave me readings each week. And sometimes I went and bought the book because I wanted more. I know I wanted more. And I will tell you, as I mentioned earlier, the one on listening rocked me the most. I bought the book and I read the book and it so impacted me.

0:13:12 - (Megan): Yeah. The Lost Art of Listening.

0:13:14 - (Karen): The Lost Art of Listening. It totally Rocked my world. And because I realized how, you know, with all the healing that I've gone through, that. That was one area that I was really lacking in. I mean, just to be honest, I was really lacking in that area, and I knew I had improved. But reading that, it just opened my eyes to sometimes why we don't listen, or we're listening to answer. And my husband said one time to one of his contract workers, he said, you talk so much, you never listen.

0:13:56 - (Megan): Oh.

0:13:57 - (Karen): And I was like, that's easy to do. Yeah, is we can talk so much that we never hear what anybody says to us. And then you complain that you didn't get details passed down to you, and you did, but you weren't listening to hear. You were listening to talk. And. And so a lot of that was really hard. Like, it was hard to look at. At. At that. But yet it's something I could change. I mean, this is. It's not like, oh, no, because we can stop. Here's a stopping point, and now here's a new starting point.

0:14:34 - (Karen): And, and even the holding space for people, it's. That part was also big. It is something I've learned, but it helped me to focus more on that and to get better at that. Because the listening and the holding space, they're literally tied together.

0:14:54 - (Megan): And you come by that honestly, we all do. Because I think, first of all, sometimes holding space or just being silent or listening can seem uncomfortable. And so we have to get comfortable recognizing that sometimes when we do hold space and honor. Honor the stories, honor the, the sharing, the vulnerabilities, that even out of 10 or 20 seconds of holding space, there's a lot going on in that space. Right?

0:15:26 - (Megan): And if we're talking through that, then we can't. We will miss it, and it might be a really big deal. The other thing is that we're given so much information and you are a researcher. I mean, you. You research and you. And you store it and you store it and you store it, and you do have so much wisdom. And so I understand why you would want to say, okay, well, here's what I have. I. I learned because you. It's. It's not from a.

0:15:56 - (Megan): Any place of mal. Intent. You've got this stored in your brain and you want to give it to them. That's why you learned it, so you can give it to them. So it is challenging to. To learn the art of intuitive practice, like a healing practice, a pastoral practice, of recognizing that companioning and compassion and, and curiosity, lack of judgment and just Being with people is a huge part of the healing.

0:16:30 - (Megan): And so it is, It's. It's a whole different dimension, isn't it?

0:16:34 - (Karen): Yes, it, it truly is. And I, and I recognize that there are a few people that just are good listeners. Naturally, most of us have to learn that, that. And that's okay. And I did not take, There was only, I think, one statement of the book that made me just like, oh, Karen. But I was like, no, okay. You learn from this. A lot of it can be parts of trauma, self protection. And if we're talking all the time, then we don't let anybody see.

0:17:06 - (Karen): But actually, one of my strengths is as a learner and as a learner and a teacher, we want to share what we've learned. And you said that so well and it is so true. And that is something that is not a bad thing. But is it time for it?

0:17:23 - (Megan): Right. Right.

0:17:23 - (Karen): Learning is. Is this the right time? I had a client the first time I met with her. She didn't want to just tell me her story. She had questions, she wanted answers to questions. And then she gave me story in between that. And so I could just answer her questions. Maybe not always the way she wanted, but that's what she needed.

0:17:50 - (Megan): Yeah. And I love that. I love that because that's that individual healing. And you honor her by recognizing that that's what she needed and that's what she was literally asking for. And that's another part of pastoral trauma counseling is honoring the divine spark in that other person and being able to, to recognize that she's different, he's different, and they need different things. And I'm going to listen to that. And then we're going to meet them there because we will always take you as you are. And that's something I always tell our new clients in that first 15 or 20 minute intake is, we're never going to judge you. We are going to meet you where you are.

0:18:36 - (Karen): Yes. Yes.

0:18:38 - (Megan): I remember also that you loved the dream. Like we talked about dream work when we talked about depth psychology and that was something you were really interested in.

0:18:49 - (Karen): Yes. And I think we were like analyzing one of the weird dreams that I had, which we won't go into because I don't even remember which one it was. But it, it does fascinate me. I am not a dream interpreter. I, I just have sometimes weird dreams, like I'm trying to solve a problem over and over and over again, you know, but they're not nightmares anymore. That's. I found value in that because a Lot of times. And when you're in crisis, you do the nightmares, the.

0:19:21 - (Karen): The thinking that you're still in. In the danger. It's. It's a real valid thing.

0:19:29 - (Megan): Right.

0:19:29 - (Karen): And so you brought a whole new perspective on it that. That I love that you do and we'll be doing soon.

0:19:38 - (Megan): Yes. Yes. Let's plug it right now.

0:19:40 - (Karen): Yes.

0:19:42 - (Megan): When is our dream? We have a free. Did you hear me? Free dream workshop coming up.

0:19:49 - (Karen): August 23rd.

0:19:50 - (Megan): August 23rd. Thank you so much. That's right. August 23rd. Yeah, we're gonna have an email going out on Monday where you can sign up for that. So. Yeah, but carry on. Sorry.

0:20:02 - (Karen): No, that's. It was a good. I was hoping that was right to say put a plug in for that dream work. Because our dreams do tell us things. And a lot of time in our mind when we're sleeping, our brain is able to process things that we can't process in the daylight. It's the time when things. Memories can come out. Though it might not come back as a memory, it just might come back as a weird dream where you're like. Like mine where you're solving a problem that you can't solve and you wake up exhausted because you've re.

0:20:34 - (Karen): You started the movie over and over and over again. And because your brain doesn't want to go to the memory, for whatever reason, it's not ready to release it. And I just realized that I haven't had that dream a lot lately where I'm constantly solving problems. That's interesting.

0:20:51 - (Megan): So that's the one we talked about, right? I mean, sometimes our subconscious is like, hello, we need to talk about this. And then you're almost forced to, because then you say, megan, I had the weirdest dream. And it keeps happening. Now we're talking about it. So it's like it's. It's out there now. It's not subconscious anymore, you know, so that's. That's what. That's what we do. That it serves its purpose.

0:21:14 - (Karen): And you brought up a really good point. Because I realized just now that even with our two hours every week, that you always took time for me, for where I was. And we would process something that I was, whether it was a dream or something I was experiencing. I do a modality that's similar to your DNMs. And so we actually did that one day. And it was so impactful for me because I didn't realize that this. This teenage part of me needed to be seen.

0:21:53 - (Karen): And so I realized that you always took time to like, where am I? What's going on? And I didn't even know I was saying anything. And you would pick up on things, go, huh, Maybe we should talk about that.

0:22:11 - (Megan): Sounds like something I would say.

0:22:12 - (Karen): Yes. And so there was some of that. So I felt like even through the process, I was getting therapy for things that I would. That I would say or not say. And there's one. I can't think of what it was. But you kept asking me the question. I'm like, why she keep asking me this question? And then I think you finally got the right. The answer that you were digging down to, because I was kind of blowing over it and.

0:22:41 - (Karen): But you kept digging down because you knew there was something there that I was not seeing, and. But you didn't tell me what it was. You just kept asking questions. So. So I felt like I got therapy through throughout the 12 weeks that I needed, so I didn't realize that till just now. Thank you for that.

0:23:03 - (Megan): Well, that's a big deal. Thank you for bringing that up. I. I mean, it's just, you know, I love my time with Karen, and we. If we had had time, we would have talked for hours every single time. But.

0:23:15 - (Karen): Yes.

0:23:16 - (Megan): Yeah, but you have everything in you that you need, and I see these things in you that are so good. And we as counselors, as coaches, as people helpers, we always need to be able to talk to somebody about things. And even though I was the facilitator and the supervisor for this, there were other times where I've been able to say, hey, Karen, you know, what do you think about my schedule? I feel like I'm doing too much. And, you know, and you could. And it was.

0:23:51 - (Megan): It's just very mutual with you. And we need that. I have my clients know I go to therapy at least for six weeks, twice a year, and then longer if I need to, because our work is wonderful. I love what we do. And we also need to be able to have somebody else enter into our world for a minute and companion us also. Right?

0:24:18 - (Karen): Yes. And I've needed that for so long, but I couldn't find it. And I was aware of that and kept asking the Lord, I don't know what I need, but I'm missing this part. I have friends, but I'm missing this part. And so even though we've kind of communicated, we've done podcasts together. We've. We've.

0:24:43 - (Megan): We've collaborated on a lot, collaborated on a few things.

0:24:46 - (Karen): But then when I went to the retreat last year and we Realized like, we were so connected and, and it was such an answer to prayer, but we didn't realize it was an answer to prayer for both of us.

0:25:00 - (Megan): Right. We were. It's so funny, I walked by that little room where we met in the pink house at the retreat in 2024, and I was like, oh, that's. I'm gonna name that the Karen room, because that's the only time I ever sat in that room. It's like a parlor or something.

0:25:15 - (Karen): Yeah.

0:25:16 - (Megan): And we. It's. It was just really cool because we were on the same page about things. And that's so hard to find. It's so hard to find because we don't fit into. We. We just don't fit into a lot of the mainstream groups. You know, even with advocacy, we don't. So. So it was just. Yeah, we needed that. And I'm so grateful to have you on board.

0:25:41 - (Karen): Yes, thank you. And I, I love it because the things that I love to do is groups. I've been doing groups for since like what, 2015. I had done different types of groups. And so. And you don't have the bandwidth for groups.

0:25:59 - (Megan): And one on one is my choice. I love groups. I just don't have. I can't. I can't do it right.

0:26:06 - (Karen): And. And I love doing groups and I also love now the one on one. And it's. I think the reason the pastoral hit so strongly for me is come from Ezekiel 34 and when the, the. The shepherds were not taking care of the people. And God said, because you've done all this, I will go find my sheep. And that's what I feel like. It's one on one of finding the vulnerable people that have been overlooked, have not been heard, who have no one who understands.

0:26:47 - (Karen): It's what I hear now is it is so nice to talk to somebody that understands what I'm going through. And that's a really big deal. I did not have that. When I came out of my abusive marriage. I had nothing. 2004, end of 2004, 2005. All through those years until social media, I had nothing. I did not know healing was even possible. There were no you's in the world. There was no access. And that's. And in. Yet in the middle of all that, God still kept taking me from one place to another to get the healing that I need. Like, once I realized it was possible, then I was just like, give me all the things, I will do all the things to get the healing that I need.

0:27:38 - (Megan): Yes, yes.

0:27:40 - (Karen): And so that's why this has been so important to me, is I want to like, you know, when Jesus was here, he went after the sheep, the vulnerable. Well, now that's our job. That is our job is to go after those, the lost women that nobody sees. They're hiding in plain sight and giving them a place to have a voice.

0:28:07 - (Megan): Yes, yes, absolutely. And anybody who knows Karen knows this about her. And the women who have been in groups with Karen, love Karen. They talk about her warmth and her understanding and yes, that she's been there. I said that yesterday to a woman who's a prospective client. I said, you would not be working with women who haven't been where you are right now. And that's a big deal. So, yes, Karen, you are a gift to all the women you work with and to all of us and to everyone who knows you.

0:28:44 - (Megan): Karen, if you, if, if you were to speak to somebody who's thinking about doing this certification in the fall, which is when, you know, we're going to open it up in the fall. And she wasn't sure, do I want to do this? Do I need to do this? What would you say to her?

0:29:02 - (Karen): Oh, gosh, if you want to really help, if you want. You want to help. I mean, I hear that so often from women. I want to help other women. And I've made all the mistakes. And when I, before I met Megan, before I did any kind of training where I met with women and so if you want to help, then Megan takes you through this. I mean, she has a structured program which a couple of times she, she switched out a reading and she goes, oh, I think because of something I said, I think we should do this read or we're going to switch this around. I think we did a switching around one time and based on what I needed and help me to be better at what I'm doing and the fact that I, I can continue to learn and, and I'm still got books I've need that I'm listening to or I need to go back through and go through again.

0:30:03 - (Karen): You just reminding me about the depth. I don't know why through everything I was like, oh, I bought that book. I need to delve into that more. And because I'm not trying to be a therapist, I want to help women to be able to. They're going to get through A to Z. Even though A to Z is full of twists and turns and ups and downs, it's not a straight line, but that through that process they can get there.

0:30:33 - (Karen): And then the program you created helped me to be able to do that, and in a good way. And then even if I'm like, oh, I think I might have made a mistake here, it's like, any mistake can be fixed with an apology, with, you know what? I told you this, but that wasn't right. I'm going to tell you this because it's not about being right. If we live to where we always have to be right, and it's our way, we're not, it doesn't work. And I can be that. I could have been that person.

0:31:07 - (Megan): I think any of us could have. I mean, you. There is an imbalance of power. Even though I try really hard to show everybody how human I am, I do find that our. Our clients trust us a lot more when we're not afraid to own something. You know, so, like, we're human, too. Okay. Big deal. You know, so it's Karen, I loved it. I miss it.

0:31:31 - (Karen): Oh, I do. I'm like, is there. Is there a 2.0 class?

0:31:37 - (Megan): I'm sure we could come up with something. But, yes, yes. I. It just was. It was such a good experience for both of us. And now Karen, of course, is part of Mountain City Christian Counseling, and we have so many wonderful things coming up that we're planning and that we're doing. And we did. Oh, we did get to give her her certificate, which was lovely. We got to do that at the retreat, and everybody cheered and clapped and, you know, they. They have watched you take this journey, and so many people are cheering you on. They're still commenting on your certification on social media.

0:32:14 - (Megan): So I'm just, you know, this was just a great fit. I would love to see more people go through this certification because you told me three or four days ago, you said there are not enough helpers for the women who are hurting. So let's. We want to spread the love. And, And I feel really good about the curriculum. I worked really hard on it. And like you said, I tell. I wanted to tailor it to you because it. Because it's not cookie cutter. Right. And that's the whole thing.

0:32:45 - (Karen): Right, Right. And. And the. The reality is not everybody can afford therapy. There are people that live in rural areas that don't have access to resources. There are women in other countries that don't have any resources. And so if you think about that, that coaching gives another option. It's not a replacement for therapy, but it gives someone an option to at least get them through.

0:33:16 - (Megan): Through Right.

0:33:17 - (Karen): Until there's a time that they can afford or find somebody that's in their area or, or they can then move on to you if. When you have an opening.

0:33:29 - (Megan): Right.

0:33:29 - (Karen): So it's. It's not taking the place of.

0:33:33 - (Megan): Right.

0:33:33 - (Karen): It's just God is so creative. He does not have one way for everybody to heal.

0:33:41 - (Megan): Yes, exactly. Karen and I, as you were talking, I was just thinking, oh, there's so, so many ways in which you could utilize the certification, including just being that person at your church who can be that safety net for people who are going through trauma or some. It's just more to add to what you've already done. It's another layer of. It's another tool for your toolbox. So. Yeah, and I'm, I'm so grateful we've got to do it together. I'm grateful for you, Karen. And if you want to work with Karen, you can go to our website@mountaincitychristian counseling.com.

0:34:19 - (Megan): she's amazing. And of course, if you want to work with me, same thing. And if you are interested in the pastoral trauma coaching certification with mccc, just send me an email. I can only do one or two at a time, so I'm opening it back up this fall. And my email is MeganountaincityChristian counseling.com so, Karen, thank you so much. I just, I love our times together. There's. Yeah. And there's a lot to look forward to, isn't there?

0:34:48 - (Karen): Yes.

0:34:48 - (Megan): Yeah. Yes.

0:34:49 - (Karen): Yes. One on one time with Megan is gold.

0:34:53 - (Megan): Oh, you're so wonderful. Thank you, Karen. Okay, well, thank you all so much for listening to Pretty Psych and we will be talking to you soon.

0:35:01 - (Karen): Yes. Bye.

0:35:03 - (Megan): Bye. I hope this conversation has encouraged deep thought as well as helped you draw parallels between therapy and your connection to God, self and others. If you'd like some one on one time with me unpacking some of your most precious life stories to find healing and rest, Contact me on mountaincitychristiancounseling.com to help this podcast reach more people. Do subscribe and review this podcast and share it with someone who would benefit from healing and rest.

0:35:43 - (Megan): My name is Megan Owen and thank you for listening to this episode of Pretty Psych. Catch you next episode and in the meantime, do find healing and do find rest.